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Yarster
10-25-1999, 06:55 PM
O.K., maybe I'm an idiot, and maybe this has been answered before, but I can't help wondering about it:

Why are so many people in prison seemingly homosexual, or is this a myth?

If 1 in 10 people is supposedly gay in the outside world, and of these, many are often 'in the closet' for fear they'll be beaten up or killed (ala the poor guy in Wyoming), I find it hard to believe all the tough macho guys in prison suddenly 'switch teams' just because no women are around. I've heard anal rape is supposed to be a power thing, but wouldn't they get the same message across if they beat up the person instead?

metroshane
10-25-1999, 07:06 PM
which would be more demeaning to you, getting beat up, or taken from behind. besides bruises show and you have to look for, well the other kind of wound. maybe it's easier to get away with.

andros
10-25-1999, 07:16 PM
Myth, Yarster. It makes good TV.

Boris B
10-25-1999, 07:18 PM
http://igc.apc.org/spr/
The above site tells it better than I can.

You raise some good points. For people on the outside, and people who aren't sociopaths, beating somebody up gets the message across just fine. Prisons are different. Not all prisoners need to be incurably evil - just a few prisoner are, and they are allowed the power to turn the place into their own little torture pit.

For one thing, there is a very different definition of homosexuality in the joint. The perpetrator of the sex crime is not considered homosexual. It seems that the aforementioned incurably evil criminals (and I do believe that - there is never a justification for rape) need someone to dominate sexually, just beating on each other isn't enough. Outside of prison, they may be sex criminals, or they may dominate women in a (theoretically) consensual manner. http://igc.apc.org/spr/docs/prison-sex-lecture.html is the detailed lecture on this matter.

I've been interested in this for a while as a human rights matter. (I started by happening upon the matter of female genital mutilation in East Africa, a human rights problem compared to official connivance in prison rape its scale and severity.)

Could we eliminate prison rape? As usual, no. Could we reduce it? Yes. It is a moral imperative? Yes. Does this mean the average voter is going to start demanding change? No, just the ones whose kids get brutalized and psychologically damaged for life cause they got caught with a joint and had bad luck in a cellmate.

America: Wake up and do something about what is happening in your prisons

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Nothing I write about any person or group should be applied to a larger group.
- Boris Badenov

Satan
10-25-1999, 07:57 PM
Boris is right about the power issue.

In some cases also, human males have a basic urge to stick their dick somewhere warm and move it around. Since there are no coed prisons, and conjugal visits from the fairer sex are not frequent for many inmates (or allowed in many jails), you take what you can get, so to speak.

Commiting a homosexual act does not make you a homosexual, any more than changing a pipe makes you a plumber.

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Yer pal,
Satan

Cornholio
10-25-1999, 11:57 PM
Speaking of which, Satan.
Hows life with heatherlee been lately?

Troy McClure SF
10-26-1999, 12:08 AM
[rimshot]
bad-a-bap-chhh!

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JMcC, San Francisco
http://members.tripod.com/~weirdstuff/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, I swear to God it sounds like they're snoring"

Timothy Campbell
10-26-1999, 04:51 AM
According to what I read in Playboy, many prisons forbid the inmates to receive copies of that magazine.

You have to wonder just how many rapes could be prevented if the prisoners had some more, uh, mainstream ways of relieving their tension. No, I'm not saying that allowing copies of Playboy would eliminate prison rape, but it alleviate the problem a bit.

Can anybody think of a rational reason why prisons would disallow subscriptions to Playboy?

Satan
10-26-1999, 04:51 AM
Life with heatherlee?

VERY heterosexual, thanks...

handy
10-26-1999, 11:25 AM
'...seemingly homosexual....?' what on earth does that mean?

I don't see any more gay people in prison than in regular society.

Yarster
10-26-1999, 11:40 AM
By 'seemingly homosexual' I mean that I can understand these macho tough guys may do the 'rectal mambo' with each other in prison but lead a heterosexual lifestyle when they return to the outside world.

As has already been mentioned, committing a homosexual act does not make one homosexual.

In other words, why are they committing this act at all? Based on the way other prisons treat child molesters (i.e. beat the crap out of them) and based on how gay people are treated in the outside world, I would think the first time a prisoner anal raped someone, everyone in the prison would beat him up/ kill him and this type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated. That's why I question if it was a myth.

And even without Playboy, I'd still rather jerk off.

hansel
10-26-1999, 08:41 PM
On a related note, and tending to support the "when it's all you've got" theory, I remember a conversation I was in with several soldiers during my army days. While they were all blatantly, straightforwardly gay haters, they were calmly and factually discussing that fact that soldiers in trenches during World War I gave each other hand jobs and blowjobs as a friend does a favor for a friend.

When I related this to a friend majoring in costume design (and studying the history of fashion), she told me that the flapper fashions of the twenties (short, boyish haircuts and long, straight dresses that hid curves) were a reaction by women to men who returned from the war less interested in buxom femininity than the kind of easy gratification they'd experienced with their fellow soldiers.

Markxxx
10-26-1999, 09:10 PM
A homosexual act does not a homosexual make.

mangeorge
10-26-1999, 10:13 PM
"A homosexual act does not a homosexual make."
---Markxxx (et al)
--------------------------------------
Oh, really? C'mon you guys. Sounds a bit like rationalization to me. Is this true for both parties? I personally don't care who's doin' who (adults), but I don't think someone who has sex with another of the same gender can honestly claim to be "straight". That would mean you could have sex with your wife 3 times a week, blow the neighbor once a month, and still hate gays. Too easy.
Truth is, men will screw just about anything.
We have our preferences, sure, but if we can't have what we want we'll settle for what we can get.
That's why, as Boris so passionately states, our penal system should do more to protect the weak and unwilling.
I've never been in prison (or the Boy Scouts), but I'm not about to say I'd never boink the (willing) cutie-pie in the next cell.
That's what I think.
Peace, mangeorge



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Work like you don't need the money.....
Love like you've never been hurt.....
Dance like nobody's watching! ....(Paraphrased)

Doug Bowe
10-26-1999, 10:32 PM
"There's no girls where you're going, Charlie."
--Vincent Bugliosi
"There's lots of sex in prison."
--Charles Manson

Timothy Campbell
10-26-1999, 10:46 PM
mangeorge:

I don't think someone who has sex with another of the same gender can honestly claim to be "straight".

I don't like rhubarb or watermelons, but if I was stranded on an island and that was all that was available...

I really don't know what I'd do if I went to prison. My first reaction is that I'd simply, uh, date my palm. But I can't honestly say that I know how the experience of prison would affect a given person, and whether (if they temporarily "switched teams") the change in sexual proclivity could be considered irrevocable.

Salieri2
10-26-1999, 11:08 PM
Check out Boris B's hyperlinked article.

[Hats off to you, BB, most interesting and informative thing I've read lately, and for me cancels out the last ghastly link I found on the SDMB, celebritymorgue.com, don't ask.]

WELL worth the read, probably answers any question you ever wanted to ask about prison sexual behavior. Everything from facts and stats to the implications for concepts of homosexuality.

Satan
10-27-1999, 12:11 AM
mangeorge:

I respectfully disagree with you.

There are many cases of people when they are younger who experiment. Tons of coeds in college have played with their roomate, and there are tons of stories about HS boys who wind up experimenting.

According to you, these people are automatically gay (or at least bi-sexual), and I don't think so.

If you were raped, would that make you cum? If a guy went down on tyou against your will, and you came (natural reaction to stimulation) does that make you gay?

I sumbit none of the above are gay, if they are not attracted to the same gender.

Satan
10-27-1999, 12:12 AM
I meant to say, if you were raped, would that make you GAY!

Hey, it's late...

theuglytruth
10-27-1999, 12:36 AM
My girlfreind is in the media, and covers such topics as conditions in prisons, and assures me that the problem is highly exaggerated. Prisons are run tighter that that.
http://pwbts.com

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http://geocities.com/capitolhill/parliament/1685/

SqrlCub
10-27-1999, 01:54 AM
People get raped in prison. Rape is not about sex, it is about power. Men have sex in prison. Oftentimes a gay person will submit to another man for a protector and/or sexual gratification. The sexual urge is much stronger in people than most would credit. Most people I know who don't have sex on at least a semi-regular basis tend to be in bad moods often. Go figure, pent up anxiety, not dealing with one of the primal forces of the self, and just the desire for companionship are all stifled in a prison situation. It is not surprising with these basic three (there are more) forces acting that men would have sex together in prison. Have you ever watched Tim Allen's (from Home Improvement) old stand-up comedy act? He used to talk about giving blow jobs to guys. He said something that was basically, "friends do a lot of things together." He was also in prison on some type of drug charges. The way he talked about oral sex with men sounded like he had experienced it first hand. The real issue at hand is how do they reconcile their homosexual acts when they are out of prison. I don't really know but my WAG is that they simply don't acknowledge it, or if they do they probably say it is just a prison thing.

HUGS!
Sqrl

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Move over Satan. ;) Now there's something meatier. http://smallwonder.simplenet.com/COC.html

Doug Bowe
10-27-1999, 02:54 AM
Prisons are run tighter than that?
Think Richard Speck.

handy
10-27-1999, 11:44 AM
Sexuality is rated on a scale of one to five.

one= all straight five= all gay

Thus, you can be a two and still be straight.

Aren't most men actually emotionally gay anyway? You know that male bonding over football, baseball, beer, brothers, etc?

mangeorge
10-27-1999, 07:49 PM
"According to you, these people are automatically gay (or at least bi-sexual), and I don't think so."
---Satan, respectfully :)
---------------------------------------
That's not what I meant to say, Satan.
My point is that if you, a man, have sex with another man, you've had a homosexual experience. Nothing wrong with that. But call it what it is.
Let's turn it around; Say a gay man has sex with his female friend. Hasn't he had a hetrosexual experience? Of course he has. Does this mean he's straight? No, not at all.
As handy pointed out there are many degrees of sexuality. Maybe not exactly five, but plenty.
The bone (heh heh) of my contention is that some men have had these experiences, enjoyed it, and then they profess to hate "queers". I say "Get real guys, you done it with a man". It's really nobody else's business (if consentual), but neither is it something to be ashamed of.
And no, someone who has been raped has not had a sexual experience of any kind. Even if she/he cums. It's sex only if preceeded by desire.
Peace,
mangeorge

Diceman
10-27-1999, 08:18 PM
It's sex only if preceeded by desire. Does that depend on what the definition "is" is? Sex is sex. Rape is non-consentual sex, but it's still sex.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

mangeorge
10-27-1999, 11:06 PM
"Rape is non-consentual sex, but it's still sex."
---Diceman
---------------------------------------
A victim of rape is definitely not having sex, Diceman.
The asshole commiting the act, motivated by some twisted desire, is having sex.
What "is" is has nothing to do with the issue.
Peace,
mangeorge

Boris B
10-28-1999, 01:17 AM
Salieri2
I'm glad someone took the time to read my link. This is a major and disturbing issue, and I wish it would progress in our consciousness beyond crude jokes. It's interesting: this is one area in which we seem to treat women better than men. Joking about the rape of a female turns people pale and earns you cold stares; joking about the rape of a male is treated like joking about airplane food or something. I suppose it's good to know that our morality has advanced enough, that at least it's not socially acceptable to laugh at the brutalization of a female.

Prisons are currently little dens of Dark Ages morality, hid from the public view by a prison system with a morality hardly any better. Every time some teenage bike thief gets brutalized, society runs the risk of creating another monster.

As to the question of consensual prison sex, I suppose I don't have any problem with it, as long as prisoners have the equipment to practice it safely.

My link refers to consensual relationships between prisoners which are analogous to marriages; it also refers to efforts by prison authorities to break up these "marriages", since they are thought to be overt evidence of homosexuality. Sexual violence will be hidden, so it doesn't make the prison authorities look so bad.

And that, my friends, is sick.

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Nothing I write about any person or group should be applied to a larger group.
- Boris Badenov

SqrlCub
10-28-1999, 10:49 AM
I read Boris B's link yesterday. It was the most disturbing thing I read in a long time. http://igc.apc.org/spr/sections/prisoners.html read the survivor stories and the survival manual. It is shocking. I have sex for mine and my partners pleasure. I don't equate any of this to sex though. It is basically coercian (sp?) to get the punk (as the prison slang calls it) to put out. There is a real threat of violence if he doesn't put out and could likely die. I knew that prison rape was brutal, but thanks to my blinders, I did not know how widespread it was. Read Boris's link.

Sqrl

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Move over Satan. ;) Now there's something meatier. http://smallwonder.simplenet.com/COC.html

Captain Amazing
11-10-1999, 01:47 AM
The term is called "situational homosexuality". When you have situations where you have members of the same sex confined together without members of the opposite sex (prisons, the army, same-sex boarding schools), they have sex with each other. Combine that with rape as a power issue, and, in a competative, agressive prison situation...

Boris B
11-10-1999, 02:17 AM
Y'know, they used to call it "sexual preference" before they called it "sexual orientation". But I think there is some merit to the former term. I mean, it's been pointed out by some that if you were on a desert island with somebody of the wrong sex, your feelings might change. Especially if he's just like Jay Davidson in The Crying Game. But we can't imagine it.

How 'bout this. Let's say, you're not gay, but you're also not a cannibal. You don't fancy a meal of human flesh with little carmelized onions and a nice dark beer. But if you were trapped on a mountain with nothing but a few fresh-frozen pilot carcasses, maybe you'd choose cannibalism over death.

I personally can envision the cannibalism much easier than the situational homosexuality, since hunger can kill you and celibacy can't (I'm living proof). But then, I've never been on the desert island.

So I hope it's clear that, in or out of prison, there can be consensual sex as well as heinous acts of violence. Prisons are not unique in either regard, but I still wish people would give the matter more attention.

Enright3
11-10-1999, 09:35 AM
<big>SALTPETER</BIG>

11-10-1999, 12:43 PM
Prisons are currently little dens of Dark Ages morality, hid from the public view by a prison system with a morality hardly any better. Every time some teenage bike thief gets brutalized, society runs the risk of creating another monster.

As to the question of consensual prison sex, I suppose I don't have any problem with it, as long as prisoners have the equipment to practice it safely.

My link refers to consensual relationships between prisoners which are analogous to marriages; it also refers to efforts by prison authorities to break up these "marriages", since they are thought to be overt evidence of homosexuality. Sexual violence will be hidden, so it doesn't make the prison authorities look so bad.

Oh great, one prisoner rapes another one in the shower and suddenly it's all my fault. The fact is that, prison rape is no more the fault of the guards then rape on the streets is the fault of the police. The blame lies on the rapist. In my prison, the average officer is expected to watch sixty to a hundred and twenty prisoners simultaneously in an area which has over a dozen different rooms.

We do all that we can to prevent rape and all other sexual acts in prison. Some of the people who posted on the website Boris linked to apparently feel we should allow consensual sex. But ask yourself how consensual the relationship really is. A weaker prisoner may "agree" to have sex with one prisoner in order to be protected from being violently raped by a group of prisoners, but his preference is not to have sex at all. So we prohibit all sexual acts.
And we realize that this prohibition will not stop all sex from occurring.

The thing that most annoys me however is when I'm doing all I can to provide a solution and people who don't know any better accuse me of being part of the problem.

Boris B
11-11-1999, 06:23 AM
Who accused you of being part of the problem? I believe there is a social responsibility to prevent prison rape, since society chooses imprisonment as punishment. Sure, the person most responsible is the rapist. The thing we usually do with rapists is put them in prison. That approach doesn't really help in this case.

As it stands, society imprisons young, weak, poorly connected men in situations where they will be unsupervised around older, strong, brutes with powerful prison contacts. This is not okay. I haven't heard anyone blame this on individual corrections people.

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Nothing I write about any person or group should be applied to a larger group.
- Boris Badenov

11-11-1999, 06:26 PM
I'm not trying to antagonize you or anyone else, Boris, but these are quotes from your post: "Prisons are currently little dens of Dark Ages morality, hid from the public view by a prison system with a morality hardly any better" and "Sexual violence will be hidden, so it doesn't make the prison authorities look so bad." I'd like to think my morality is considerably better than that of the convicted criminals I work with and I have never seen any efforts being made to cover up crimes committed by prisoners in order to improve the prison "image".

Allow me to use the analogy of a hospital, which is a place full of sickness, pain, and death. A person who only gave the place a casual glance might surmise that the hospital, and its staff, must have created all this suffering. But the reality is that all the suffering originated in the outside world and was brought to one location so it wouldn't be inflicted on the public and so professionals could attempt to alleviate it as much as possible. The prison system works the same way. The criminal element of society is seperated out by the police and court system and confined in places where they cannot prey upon the public and where attempts can be made to rehabilitate them. It is true that prisons have incredibly high crime rates in the same sense that hospitals have incredibly high disease rates. This is an indication that we are forced to deal with a difficult problem not a sign that we are condoning it.

And yes Arnold I am aware that there are bad people in my profession as there are in any other. And like most people I am much angrier at these "colleagues", whose acts reflect on me, than a member of the general public would be. I realize the difficulties they have to work under, but I also realize from my personal experience that it is possible to overcome these difficulties and do your job in a professional manner.

Boris B
11-11-1999, 08:37 PM
I said the morality of the prison system was hardly any better than that of the inmates. Clearly, I was not very informative.

I have no trouble believing that there are upstanding, ethical people working in the correctional system. This doesn't really change the ethics of the system. The system cannot be ethical, regardless of the efforts of the people in it, as long as non-violent crimes are regarded as being as bad as, or worse than, violent crimes.

Yes, these are nothing more than my personal opinions. Moral judgements of systems and policies don't really work like moral judgements of people. I feel comfortable criticizing U.S. policy during the Phillipine Wars, even though the soldiers involved were mostly upstanding citizens doing their jobs. The system was imperialist, destructive, and racist. The people involved are not being judged at all, with the exceptions of the people who created the policy.

If I'm condemning any individuals here, it is the people who wrote the laws that created the criminal justice system.
People who create mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses, and not for violence.
People, like Arnold mentioned, who use the brutality in prisons as an anvil to threaten convicts.
The bizarre habit of attempting to try juveniles as adults. Perhaps it is justified sometimes, but it seems like prosecutors do it all the time.
People who tell themselves bedtime stories about how only the most brutal prisoners suffer sexual violence, and people who convince themselves that rape is "just deserts" for crime.

You've mentioned that small numbers of officials have to supervise huge numbers of convicts. Why is this? Could it be because politicians have built so many prisons that the availabe staff is spread ridiculously thin? Given the enormous prison-building boom, combined with tight-fisted staffing policies, it seems like we can only expect understaffing.

The alternative would be ending the drug war, but that is a different thread.

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Nothing I write about any person or group should be applied to a larger group.
- Boris Badenov

BoBettie
11-11-1999, 08:55 PM
Well, I went in and read one of the "survivor stories" and it read like a story straight out of a XXX mag. ("Memories of Rape") I had trouble deciding if the site was legitimate or not after that one. (Not just a graphic description of rape, but one that uses "penthouse style" descriptions).

As they got hotter and hotter they'd start grinding nicely and kissing on my neck and back and rub on my sides, legs, butt, and stomach. This felt so good and I'd Just give in to it and enjoy it. I would start ***king them back so I could grind my c**k into the bed and get my own pleasure. It felt really good, but right when I would start getting real hot they would usually cum and put all their weight on me before I could orgasm

I know there is a real problem with this, but I wonder about some of those stories....
Zette

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Boris B
11-11-1999, 09:54 PM
Zette's quote is from: http://igc.apc.org/spr/docs/memories.html

Nothing about the account makes me doubt it. I suppose it could be made up, but I believe it. The fella who wrote it is just describing in detail the up and (mainly) downs of prison life.

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Nothing I write about any person or group should be applied to a larger group.
- Boris Badenov

Arnold Winkelried
11-12-1999, 01:33 AM
Oh great, one prisoner rapes another one in the shower and suddenly it's all my fault. The fact is that, prison rape is no more the fault of the guards then rape on the streets is the fault of the police. The blame lies on the rapist. In my prison, the average officer is expected to watch sixty to a hundred and twenty prisoners simultaneously in an area which has over a dozen different rooms.

I'm sure most prison guards try to do the best they can in very difficult circumstances. But there are also cases where prison guards have been accused of using the threat of homosexual rape as punishment or threat.

A recent example would be Corcoran State Prison in California. Several questionable practices by the guards there have been raised. Note: in the latest court case, four guards accused of setting up the prison rape of a troublemaker have been acquitted.

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La franchise ne consiste pas dire tout ce que l'on pense, mais penser tout ce que l'on dit.
H. de Livry

11-12-1999, 08:35 AM
Okay, Boris, thanks for the response. But it seems to me the problems you're describing are faults of the judicial system not the prison system. As I have had to tell any number of convicts, "I wasn't the one who decided to put you in here and I won't be the one who'll decide to let you out of here. I'm just the one who'll be watching you while you are here."

As for your opinions on who should be in prison, I think I'd agree with many of them. On another thread on this board, I wrote that I personally favor the complete and total legalization of all drugs (on the grounds of individual liberty not personal preference). I'd also favor the elimination of most other victimless crimes on the same principle. But the fact is that lawmakers, in response to democratic influence, decide who will be incarcerated.

Nickrz
11-12-1999, 03:26 PM
Lenny Bruce on prison homosexuality (specifically, the BOA)

"True magazine just came out with this vicious expose of the Birdman of Alcatraz. The book's a hoax and the movie's a joke. True tells you why. Are you ready for this? Reason number one. Dig: 'The Birdman of Alcatraz is a self-confessed ho-mo-sex-u-al!' Well isn't that a kick in the ass? He's been in the joint fifty-seven years! Look at all the cunt he coulda' had, and he turns out to be a faggot! I don't know about you, Jim, but if you put me on a desert island for three months without chicks, I'll do it to mud! Here's reason number two: 'The Birdman of Alcatraz is a menace to the younger inmates.' Oh, sure - like the ones sixty-three, sixty-five...."
----------------------------
And with that, I'll send this thread off to Great Debates.
Nickrz
------
GQ Mod

Arnold Winkelried
11-13-1999, 01:25 AM
This is off-topic, but I can't resist the chance to quote a great movie line of dialogue.

Mike King's sentence
[quoe]I wasn't the one who decided to put you in here and I won't be the one who'll decide to let you out of here. I'm just the one who'll be watching you while you are here.[/quote]

reminds me of the movie Double Jeopardy when Tommy Lee Jones' character (a parole office) tells Ashely Judd's character "I'm not interested in your contrition, I'm interested in your behaviour. Now go out there and behave yourself."

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La franchise ne consiste pas dire tout ce que l'on pense, mais penser tout ce que l'on dit.
H. de Livry

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