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View Full Version : What's the Main Difference Between Cocoa Leaves And Cocaine?


Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 09:36 AM
I know they make cocaine out of cocoa leaves but how exactly do they do this? What is added and how?

Also is it illegal to have cocoa leaves in your possesion if you are in South America? And if you chew on them do you have the same high as being on coke?

I know know weird questions but my best man from my wedding was in town and we always have weird discussions.

chutwig
08-29-2001, 09:41 AM
They make them out of COCA leaves, not COCOA leaves. The difference is ever so slight.

Ethilrist
08-29-2001, 09:42 AM
Well, first, it's coca, not cocoa. Cocoa's what they make chocolate out of.

From what I remember from junior high about heroine et al., it's actually the flower buds they use. They look like rose hips. People slice them around the equator with a knife and the sap runs out. They scrape the sap off and boil it down to make heroine. That gets refined to make cocaine, methedrine, codeine and other cool stuff. The workers sometimes keep themselves happy by chewing on the leaves.

I'd say that possession of any part of a coca plant, even the tiniest of roots, would be a Very Bad Thing in most countries.

Cocoa production I know nothing about. What's that say about the american school system?

Lucky
08-29-2001, 09:44 AM
I don't know how they process cocoa leaves to make cocaine, but I do know that it was not illegal to be in possesion of the leaves in Peru as recently as 1994. See, my mom went there with some friends and I now have these delightful photos of 50-something women munching away on cocoa leaves under the thatched roof of what appears to be a nice tourist bar. Move over, Dali.

Anyway, mom said they got a little buzzed--nothing more.

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 09:45 AM
I new it looked funny when I typed it. Of course I meant "coca" not cocoa.

And they make heroin from coca leaves to? I thought it was made from the poppy plant. (probably spelled poppy wrong too)

Lucky
08-29-2001, 09:46 AM
Crap! I should have known better than to copy WB's "cocoa". That'll teach me to be lazy.

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Lucky
Crap! I should have known better than to copy WB's "cocoa". That'll teach me to be lazy.

:D

Your mom chewed on coca(ha ha I spelled it right)leaves? Wow and she told you.

Cartooniverse
08-29-2001, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Ethilrist
Well, first, it's coca, not cocoa. Cocoa's what they make chocolate out of.

They scrape the sap off and boil it down to make heroine. That gets refined to make cocaine, methedrine, codeine and other cool stuff.

Cocoa production I know nothing about. What's that say about the american school system?

<----beside myself with laughter. Okay, first of all, Heroine is the spry young gal in the blonde pigtails who is tied to the freaking RAILROAD TRACKS, awaiting the arrival of either Dudley Do-Right, OR GingerOfTheNorth ( me, I chose her as my heroine of heroine;s any day :D ). HEROIN is an opiate, and derivative of the POPPY plant. NOT the coca leaf, OR the cocoa leaf.

Poppies begat Opium. Opium begat Heroin. ( Along with laudinum and other delights of the 18th century. Nice to see that people used their Alchemy skills to a (cough) high end ). You find a way to get heroin from coca leaves, you call me up. I've got some lead I need converted into gold, m'kay? ;)

Now, what does THAT say about the American school system???

Cartooniverse
08-29-2001, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Wildest Bill
I new it looked funny when I typed it. Of course I meant "coca" not cocoa.

And they make heroin from coca leaves to? I thought it was made from the poppy plant. (probably spelled poppy wrong too)

Oh god, Wildest Bill, you just have to admit that if you'd never said anything about American schooling, this wouldn't have happened to you at all. <cackle>

I'd guess you meant to say, " I knew". Additionally, it might have worked better if you'd just said, And they make heroin from coca leaves too? instead of what you said.

(Take two)- So, what does THIS say about the American School System? Where the hell did you GROW UP????

<---amused, and hoping you are at least a little. And not for nothing, but I get a slapping around for not reading to the bottom of the thread before being a wisenheimer about the poppy/heroin thing. You nailed that, and I missed it- sorry. Still chuckling, though. :)

Cartooniverse

Mirage
08-29-2001, 09:56 AM
Ethilrist, Heroin is derived from Opium which comes from the opium poppy. This process is pretty much how you describe and leads to Morphium, Codeine, and other opiates..

Coccaine however comes from the coca leaf, and is removed with the aid of a base (if I recall correctly) in the form of a salt. If you were chewing the coca leaf, you would also need the catalitic base to release the drug from the leaf. The natives I believe use calcified lime for this process.

Mac Guffin
08-29-2001, 10:05 AM
So what WB is asking, if I read this right, is how to manufacture Cocaine from the coca plant?

Am I wrong here? Hmmm, let me check the OP again...
Wildest Bill said,
I know they make cocaine out of cocoa leaves but how exactly do they do this? What is added and how?


Yep. Looks to me like this thread will be closed before I finish typing this sentence.

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 10:07 AM
Would ya'll give me a break. I didn't get much sleep last night ok? I'm tired. I said I meant coca not cocoa.

Ethilrist
08-29-2001, 10:09 AM
mutter... grumble... I said I was going from memory, here... geez...

and I still don't know how they make chocolate. And don't give me that bit about the chocolate waterfall or anything!

lno
08-29-2001, 10:13 AM
If this thread stays open, I'd better take advantage of this atmosphere and begin another thread. See, my business is, uh, narcotics. I have fields in Turkey where they grow the poppy. And in Sicily I have the plants to process them into heroin. I'm just wondering about the exact procedure...

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Ethilrist


and I still don't know how they make chocolate. And don't give me that bit about the chocolate waterfall or anything! [/B]

They use coca leaves to make chocolate or is the cocoa or is it coca...

No they don't use leaves it does come from Willie Waterfall. oompa oompa dipity dee. ;)

Cartooniverse
08-29-2001, 10:17 AM
Hey man, I'm sorry. I'm on 4 1/5 hours of sleep in the last 29 hours myself, I was just messin' with ya.

As for the question of how it's made? PLEASE, let's not go there, it's in direct violation of the Rules of the Road....

As for how chocolate is made, THAT I can answer with a slight degree of expertise, having witnessed it once.

I shot a job for Nestle'. I stood in a room that was FILLED with these low cylindrical machines, that stood a few inches over troughts that were set into the ground. Cocoa paste- the extract of god knows what part of the plant- was packed into these machines, and then with extremely HIGH heat ( we're talking, the rubber lens shade got soft on me ), they press out the cocoa oils, leaving behind a thick packed pastey goop.

Then, ya add yer sugar, yer other flavors, and yer millions of additives that ya find on the candy bar wrapper. I kept thinking of the term "isomerizing"- high pressure extraction of oils, a la something my cousin used to do with hash when I was a kid. :eek: It did indeed change the consistency and oil content of the cocoa extract.

Wish I could tell you more, but that's what I saw and shot. And, learned how they make the little curl on each and every Nestle's toll house morsel. However, I'm not permitted to share that information. They're watching me.......always watching me......

Cartooniverse

Spectre of Pithecanthropus
08-29-2001, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Lucky
I don't know how they process cocoa leaves to make cocaine, but I do know that it was not illegal to be in possesion of the leaves in Peru as recently as 1994. See, my mom went there with some friends and I now have these delightful photos of 50-something women munching away on cocoa leaves under the thatched roof of what appears to be a nice tourist bar. Move over, Dali.

Anyway, mom said they got a little buzzed--nothing more.
I heard, too, that you can get coca leaf tea down there. Supposedly if you take your coca in that form little if any health risk will attend you.

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Cartooniverse
[B]Hey man, I'm sorry. I'm on 4 1/5 hours of sleep in the last 29 hours myself, I was just messin' with ya.

That's cool.

As for the question of how it's made? PLEASE, let's not go there, it's in direct violation of the Rules of the Road....

Is it really against the rules? I didn't know that. I mean I learned about it Jr High(forgot it) but I still learned it in Jr. High. Why would it be against the rules to know how it is derived from the coca plant? Manhattan is this really against the rules? I mean I don't want a step by step method or anything. I just wondered how they do it?

Mac Guffin
08-29-2001, 10:28 AM
Why would you even WANT to know this, Bill? Those Mexican Fat Burners just not doing the trick anymore?


*amazed to be even able to still post here*

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 10:34 AM
Why because I told you that me and this friend of mine were having a conversation and it came up. And both of us really didn't know but I told him about this board where people were really smart and could probably get the answer in a few minutes.

Now as far other questions about anal fisting why people would want to know that REALLY BLOWS MY MIND but I can't ask this?

Mac Guffin
08-29-2001, 10:41 AM
IANAMod, but I beleve that questions about how to do illegal things, (Like manufacturing narcotics, effective murder techniques, napster) are Very Frowned Apon.

Making cocaine from coca leaves is illegal.

You are asking how it is done.

Why is this thread still open?

flodnak
08-29-2001, 10:50 AM
Before this thread gets closed...

Coca leaves themselves are legal to buy, sell, possess and chew in Peru and Bolivia and, I assume, other countries where the coca shrub is widely cultivated. You can easily buy them at public markets. It's making cocaine from them that is illegal.

Chewing coca leaves is a centuries-old tradition in parts of South America. It's said to give the chewer a slight pick-me-up, along the lines of a cup of coffee. It will not get you high.

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 10:58 AM
Ok particlewill,

Like I said I did not know it was against the rules. If it indeed is against the rules mods please close this thread. Like I said I just wanted the general answer not a step by step process.

And isn't anal sex still illegal in a few states why is it allowed to be talked about on this board?

Thanks flod for the answer you provided.

Lucky
08-29-2001, 11:02 AM
originally posted by Wildest BillYour mom chewed on coca(ha ha I spelled it right)leaves? Wow and she told you.

Of course. We're both adults and we're honest with each other. Are you suggesting that she should have been ashamed of what she'd done? A legal activity with no harmful results?

Wildest Bill
08-29-2001, 11:10 AM
No lucky it is cool your mom is open with you. It is just the way society is these days that made me think wow. I mean look at the way particlewill is freak'n out that I would I even ask a question about how cocaine is derived from coca plants just for general knowledge.

Mac Guffin
08-29-2001, 11:25 AM
A.) I am not freaking out. I am marveling that manhattan hasn't jumped on this thread like stinky on poopie yet. He has a reputation of stamping out this sort of thread.

B.) General knowledge? That makes asking questions about illegal activities ok? I wanna know how to make fertilizer into a bomb, just for general knowledge. Can anyone out there tell me? I was discussing it with a friend. It's ok because they are discussing anal sex over there....


sheesh.

breaknrun
08-29-2001, 12:06 PM
Google google google. Search on "cocaine production leaves" and you'll get some hits which should tell you all you desire. Some may even go into more detail than is decent. I won't post links since they'll probably get deleted. As for why this thread hasn't been closed,particlewill, there's really no need to as long as the answer is general enough to be informative without being cookbook specific. The information itself isn't illegal and isn't useful though some mods probably prefer to be safe and conservative.

toadspittle
08-29-2001, 01:10 PM
I think the basic fact that coca leaves are pretty scarce in most of the SDMB's viewing area gives the mods some protection. We're not talking about boiling down oak leaves or something to make a narcotic. We're talking about something that is virtually impossible to come by.

No worse a discussion, IMHO, than talkinga bout nuclear bomb building. Anyone here have easy access to enriched uranium? I didn't think so.

Moirai
08-29-2001, 01:46 PM
IIRC, one of the things used to derive cocaine from coca leaves is acid. As in, glacial acetic acid, I think. I think I have seen footage of peasants stomping leaves in buckets of acid, like Lucy Ricardo did in the wine vat.

This acid can maim, but hey, the drug lords aren't going to do it themselves.

lieu
08-29-2001, 03:00 PM
This thread gave me my best worchuckle today. You guys are killing me... cocoa, heroine!

I hiked the Inca Trail from Olyantabo (sp?) to Machu Picchu back in '89 or so. We bought bags of coco leaves, sandwich sized, plus this "elixir" that looked like a little brick of hash. You put some leaves in your mouth, nipped off a little of the elixir and tried not to gag. No, no buzz was forthcomming, you simply didn't get as hungry and your feet didn't ache quite as much from the hike & climb. Believe me, the buzz was much greater just from the scenery.

Ed. note - Now that freaking cocoas sh*t they sold in the back alleyways of town (Cusco) was gd unbelievable!

manhattan
08-29-2001, 05:21 PM
Sheesh! I get a pit thread when I close a drug thread and a scolding when I don't!

Partly to see what happens, we're gonna leave this one open for now, with the following provisos:

a) Possession of coca leaves is not legal in the United States, making the exercise academic for United States residents (if I am in error here, please let me know).

b) Folks can post generically about how to separate cocaine from coca, but please refrain from being too specific. For example, “It becomes powder because the reaction with a catalyst creates a paste, which is then dried and chopped” is OK, but “you want to soak the leaves in a solution of (specific solution) for (specific time), etc.” would be kind of borderline.1

c) Information about distribution or sales in the United States is right out.

We may have to do some editing here, but no one need fear being banned because of a single post that goes over the line.

Carry on.



1 I have no idea whatsoever whether those tidbits are factually correct; they are illustrative only.

yabob
08-29-2001, 05:43 PM
OK I'll try the link I hesitated to post earlier - this is a government overview publication concerning the drug trade, note:

http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/GovPubs/cocccp.htm

Good description of the extraction process about halfway down - look for "Cocaine Processing".

Manhattan may delete that link if he feels it is far too specific, but, since this is a DEA document located on the site of a legitimate political action group (albeit one with a definite agenda), it may be OK. It's not some anarchist site.

manhattan
08-29-2001, 06:00 PM
Thanks, yabob, both for posting the link and for waiting.

Out of curiosity, I went to the DEA site. A quick search didn't find that exact document, but here (http://dea.gov/briefingbook/page16-31.htm#cocaine) is a not dissimilar piece on the subject.

usurper
08-29-2001, 08:24 PM
Forum,

It is my belief that coca, is also used to make cocoa. In fact I would be willing to bet on it.

Organic chemistry is a very interesting subject. But I can assure you, that they do not make methamphetamine from coca. They do not make heroine from it either.

Heroine is made from poppies, I believe it is the seeds that play the major role.

Methamphetamine can be made from so many different plants and other substances it would amaze you. Examples are dill, licorice, perfume ingredients, ephedrine, psudoephedrine,(sp) and basically half the plants on this planet. The trick is you have to use different procedures in each case. The most common one is the reduction of the ephedrines, with Hydriodic Acid. Basically sudafed tablets, mixed with Iodine crystals and red phosphorus. (An amazing reaction) For the record, there is no possible way that this reaction can "blow up". Since meth labs are always suppose to be in danger of blowing up, according to the government, that should tell you something.

I will try to find the proof that cocaine and cocoa come from the same plant. If you can prove me wrong feel free. The other information I know is correct.

Ringo
08-29-2001, 08:55 PM
Manufacturing cocaine is not necessarily illegal. I've had a physician administer cocaine to me and I presume he acquired it from a legally sanctioned pharmaceutical manufacturer. My former brother-in-law was a physician who picked up an ounce ($20!!) of it when he joined a ski patrol.

bibliophage
08-29-2001, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by usurper
It is my belief that coca, is also used to make cocoa. In fact I would be willing to bet on it.You'd lose that bet. Cocaine comes from the coca plant (Erythroxylon coca) while cocoa comes from the cacao plant (Theobroma cacao).

Sultan Kinkari
08-29-2001, 09:31 PM
Cocaine is made by placing coca leaves in plastic-lined(Visqueen) beds, basically a 4'x8' sheet of plywood with a 4" lip around the edge. Jet fuel or some other solvent is then poured into the beds which saps out all of the psychoactive chemicals. Three weeks later after all of the solvents have evaporated and a fine white powdery residue has coated the plastic, it is scraped off and packaged for shipment. Sometimes pure cocaine is tinted pink because of the red industrial dyes used(like those found in diesel fuel) by the manufacturer of the jet fuel.

Karellen
08-30-2001, 12:24 AM
According to the host of a program I saw on the Discovery Channel (I think it was "Journeys to the Ends of the Earth") the chewing of coca leaves is not only quite entrenched in many cultures in Peru, but it hasn't caused any "drug problems" like we see with cocaine.

The reason? Strength. Apparently the amount of coca leaves you'd have to chew to equivocate one line of coke is enough to fill two large plastic garbage bags. Even the most har-core chewers don't consume enough in a day to create destructive addictions, destroy their diets, or act like jerks at parties (the three downfalls of coke, IMHO).

It's sort of like caffeine, or booze. If they ever made a pill equivalent to 20 cups of coffee, I'm sure the FDA and DEA would jump right in and regulate/ban it. And most states already have different regulations/licensing for liquor than beer, for the same reasons.

Karellen
08-30-2001, 12:28 AM
As far as coco and cocoa being the same, well obviously they are not, but think of the possibilities if you combined them: Chocolate Cocaine!

You could call it Cocoacaine, or Chococaine. Maybe mix in some coffee beans and call it Mochaine, or Cocainespresso. I'd buy a cup. Modeling agencies would order it by the truckload!

Ned
08-30-2001, 10:17 AM
Apparently the amount of coca leaves you'd have to chew to equivocate one line of coke is enough to fill two large plastic garbage bags.

Not sure how one would go about equivocating a line of coke but I assure you that no one would bother chewing coca leaves if your formula was correct. Concentrations vary from .25 to 1% in leaves with about 350kg of leaves to produce 1kg of cocaine. In other words a gram, which contains 10 to 20 lines depending on your preference, is made from less than a pound of leaves.

Whether there are problems from chewing in Peru is a debatable point. Certainly there are not the socially induced problems which the war on drugs imposes in America.

Joe_Cool
08-30-2001, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Karellen
As far as coco and cocoa being the same, well obviously they are not, but think of the possibilities if you combined them: Chocolate Cocaine!

You could call it Cocoacaine, or Chococaine. Maybe mix in some coffee beans and call it Mochaine, or Cocainespresso. I'd buy a cup. Modeling agencies would order it by the truckload!

Yeah, and imagine if you combined it with the extract of the cola nut, and mixed it with sugar and carbonated water to make it into a drink...it would be Coca-Cola!

Oh, wait...

Captain Amazing
08-30-2001, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by usurper

I will try to find the proof that cocaine and cocoa come from the same plant. If you can prove me wrong feel free. The other information I know is correct.

The scientific name of the Coca plant is Erythroxylon coca.

The scentific name of the Cacao plant, that chocolate is made from is Theobroma cacao.

No one other than you in this thread asserted that the two plants were the same. Wildest Bill seemed to, in the op, but it was a typo.

Mac Guffin
08-30-2001, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Karellen
As far as coco and cocoa being the same, well obviously they are not, but think of the possibilities if you combined them: Chocolate Cocaine!

You could call it Cocoacaine, or Chococaine. Maybe mix in some coffee beans and call it Mochaine, or Cocainespresso. I'd buy a cup. Modeling agencies would order it by the truckload!

Chocolate covered crack?

elelle
08-30-2001, 07:15 PM
Bibliophage & Captain Amazing are right, usurper.

Cacao (http://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cacao-02.html) and Cocaine (http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/kings/erythroxylon.html) are two entirely different plants, with different processing methods. For chocolate and cocoa, the fruit is used, and for coca and the overpriced white powder, the leaves contain the active constituents.

In the case of Papaver Somniferum (http://botgard.ucla.edu/html/botanytextbooks/economicbotany/Papaver), it's the latex from the developing seed pods that is used, not the seeds themselves, which don't contain the active alkaloids.

There's a lot of good information about the plants discussed here in the links. It's not my intention to provide information about their illicit use, but to dispel a bit of botanical ignorance.

Colibri
08-31-2001, 07:45 PM
I visited Peru several times times in 1997-1998, and coca leaf tea was readily (and legally) available in many restaurants. The effect is a mild pick-me-up, nothing like a cocaine "high." (I'm glad my line of work doesn't require random drug tests.) The use of coca leaves, for chewing and as tea, is so ingrained in Andean cultures that banning it would be like banning tea or coffee in the U.S.

A Friend of the Devil
08-31-2001, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by manhattan

a) Possession of coca leaves is not legal in the United States, making the exercise academic for United States residents (if I am in error here, please let me know).



I'm going off memeory here from something in the Scientific American quite a few years ago.....

Coca leaves are legally imported into the US and the cocaine extracted for use as an anesthetic during some types of eye surgery (IIRC, it constricts the blood vessels - Quadgop, ya around?). The remaining residue is then sold to the Coca-Cola company for use as "natural flavoring"

In addition, I believe Unca Cece had something about this in a column a while back.

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