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#1
Old 07-10-2014, 09:19 PM
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Cities with alternate names

On an old SD thread, one poster from Vietnam noted that Ho Chi Minh City is almost never referred to by that name outside of formal documents. All other usage is by the pre-1975 name of Saigon. What other cities have widely used names that are not the official name, either by the locals or the world at large? And does the usage vary on political or other lines?
#3
Old 07-10-2014, 10:17 PM
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Well, there's Istanbul or Constantinople (aka Byzantium).
#4
Old 07-10-2014, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by njtt View Post
Well, there's Istanbul or Constantinople (aka Byzantium).
But does anyone still use Constantinople in everyday usage?
#5
Old 07-10-2014, 10:41 PM
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Do names in other languages count? London, England, is Londres in French...
#6
Old 07-10-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by installLSC View Post
But does anyone still use Constantinople in everyday usage?
It's nobody's business but the Turks'.
#7
Old 07-10-2014, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunspace View Post
Do names in other languages count? London, England, is Londres in French...
Confusingly, the city of London and the City of London are two different places.
#8
Old 07-10-2014, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by installLSC View Post
But does anyone still use Constantinople in everyday usage?
The Eastern Orthodox Church, but that's about it.
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#9
Old 07-10-2014, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Confusingly, the city of London and the City of London are two different places.
Well, considered a places, the City of London is within the city of London. East London is far to the south of south London, however.
#10
Old 07-10-2014, 11:19 PM
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I bet there are Russians who still call St. Petersburg, "Leningrad" (or possibly even "Petrograd"), and I think I read somewhere recently that changing Volgograd back to Stalingrad is being mooted.

ETA: Here we are:

Quote:
Starting in 2013, for nine days every year, the city may be officially referred to as "Stalingrad".[13] There is a debate in the city regarding if the city should be permanently renamed "Stalingrad", president Vladimir Putin has expressed that such a move should be preceded by a local referendum.

Last edited by njtt; 07-10-2014 at 11:21 PM.
#11
Old 07-10-2014, 11:25 PM
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Are you counting things like where the name in English has changed but some people use the old one? Like Beijing/Peking or Mumbai/Bombay.
#12
Old 07-10-2014, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Are you counting things like where the name in English has changed but some people use the old one? Like Beijing/Peking or Mumbai/Bombay.
Yes.
Quote:
Do names in other languages count?
No.
#13
Old 07-10-2014, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by installLSC View Post
On an old SD thread, one poster from Vietnam noted that Ho Chi Minh City is almost never referred to by that name outside of formal documents. All other usage is by the pre-1975 name of Saigon. What other cities have widely used names that are not the official name, either by the locals or the world at large? And does the usage vary on political or other lines?
There actually still is a Saigon too. Ho Chi Minh City is divided into 21 districts -- 16 urban and five rural. District 1 is still officially known as Saigon, and it's here that many if not most of the tourist sites of HCMC can be found. (Many residents still referring to the entire city as Saigon tends to confuse things.)
#14
Old 07-11-2014, 12:06 AM
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Nobody refers to Kentucky's second city by its official name, Lexington-Fayette.

Millions of people believe they have been in Las Vegas, but both the airport and The Strip are in Paradise, Nevada, and most people never leave Paradise and enter the city of Las Vegas while they are on the ground for their visit there.

Last edited by jtur88; 07-11-2014 at 12:09 AM.
#15
Old 07-11-2014, 12:16 AM
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The official name of Ventura, California is San Buenaventura. The city government mostly uses Ventura, but official documents and the city seal still say San Buenaventura.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 07-11-2014 at 12:16 AM.
#16
Old 07-11-2014, 12:18 AM
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Shawnee-Mission, Kansas, is a suburban Kansas City urban area with a population of 350,000, but does not exist as any kind of an entity, except as a postal address.. It is widely used as a local reference, but actually consists of 15 cities and towns. All of them use Shawnee-Mission KS as their postal address.

Last edited by jtur88; 07-11-2014 at 12:19 AM.
#17
Old 07-11-2014, 12:26 AM
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El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula
#18
Old 07-11-2014, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njtt View Post
Well, considered a places, the City of London is within the city of London. East London is far to the south of south London, however.
The City of London is surrounded by the city of London but it's not part of it in the sense that Brooklyn is part of New York City or Montmartre is part of Paris. It's a separate political entity with its own mayor, political administration, and police force.
#19
Old 07-11-2014, 01:25 AM
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All of London is made up of separate political administrations, many (all?) of which have officers called mayors. London is almost more like a US county than a US city. The City of London is unique in several ways but it's definitely a part of the administrative entity of Greater London. If you live in the City of London, you vote for the London Assembly and the Mayor of London just like you do if you live in the City of Westminster or the Borough of Lambeth.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 07-11-2014 at 01:27 AM.
#20
Old 07-11-2014, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
If you live in the City of London, you vote for the London Assembly and the Mayor of London just like you do if you live in the City of Westminster or the Borough of Lambeth.
The strange thing being that the number of people who actually live in the City of London is negligible. But your point stands nevertheless.

Spain is host to a few cities with multiple names, mostly due to the contrast between regional languages and the Spanish language. San Sebastián is often called 'Donosti' or 'Donostia'; Lérida often called 'Lleida', and some people even call Pamplona 'Iruña''. Which version of the name you use is often a political statement.

Last edited by Batistuta; 07-11-2014 at 03:02 AM.
#21
Old 07-11-2014, 03:23 AM
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What about the capitol city of Myanmar? Doesn't the US still refuse to acknowledge the gov. (and associated name changes) as legit?
#22
Old 07-11-2014, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Bean View Post
Are you counting things like where the name in English has changed but some people use the old one? Like Beijing/Peking or Mumbai/Bombay.
In that category, there's also Chennai (Madras) and Kolkata (Calcutta), the first of which especially has become common in English.
#23
Old 07-11-2014, 04:07 AM
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American soldiers stationed in Germany usually refer to the city of Kaiserslautern as “K-town” (Kaiserslautern, by the way, is the largest U.S. population center outside the territory of the United States, according to Wikipedia). The Germany city of Eisenhüttenstadt (the youngest city in Germany, by the way) is often just called “Hütte”.
#24
Old 07-11-2014, 05:02 AM
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Kingston upon Hull is usually just called Hull, but that's the name of the river.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_upon_Hull
#25
Old 07-11-2014, 05:09 AM
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Derry/Londonderry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/L...y_name_dispute

Silver Spring, Maryland is not a school district nor an incorporated city. It's the fourth largest city in Maryland, yet it has no clear boundaries. It's just a postal address. So it in effect has two names, Silver Spring and nothing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Spring,_Maryland
#26
Old 07-11-2014, 05:18 AM
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Chipping Ongar is usually just called Ongar.
#27
Old 07-11-2014, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobSwan View Post
Chipping Ongar is usually just called Ongar.
And Chipping Norton is usually called 'Chippy' by locals.

What about Köln - Cologne

Or there are the contentious names for the British Falkland Isles, which the Argies like to call Las Malvinas.

Last edited by bob++; 07-11-2014 at 05:33 AM.
#28
Old 07-11-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
What about the capitol city of Myanmar? Doesn't the US still refuse to acknowledge the gov. (and associated name changes) as legit?
Aung San Suu Kyi still uses Burma and Rangoon. So does the BBC.
#29
Old 07-11-2014, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
The City of London is surrounded by the city of London but it's not part of it in the sense that Brooklyn is part of New York City or Montmartre is part of Paris. It's a separate political entity with its own mayor, political administration, and police force.
Quite apart from what Lord Feldon and Batistuta said, note that I said “considered as places”, which was intended to forestall just such an objection as you nevertheless made.
#30
Old 07-11-2014, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
What about the capitol city of Myanmar? Doesn't the US still refuse to acknowledge the gov. (and associated name changes) as legit?
One shouldn't say "Myanmar", one should say "Mother and I".
#31
Old 07-11-2014, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobSwan View Post
Chipping Ongar is usually just called Ongar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob++ View Post
And Chipping Norton is usually called 'Chippy' by locals.
But Chipping Sodbury is usually called "Sodding Chipbury."
#32
Old 07-11-2014, 09:44 AM
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There is a string of postal addresses along the main line (of the PRR) west of Philly that have no legal existence: Bala Kynwyd. Narberth, Ardmore, Haverford, Bryn Mawr,... that are politically mostly part of Upper Darby Township (Bryn Mawr actually straddles the county line). Confusingly, there is also a postal address called Upper Darby, also in the township. The names used in the postal address are what the locals (and everyone else) calls them.
#33
Old 07-11-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob++ View Post
And Chipping Norton is usually called 'Chippy' by locals.

What about Köln - Cologne

Or there are the contentious names for the British Falkland Isles, which the Argies like to call Las Malvinas.
Cologne is just the Anglicization of Koln, much like Munich:Munchen, Vienna:Wien, etc.

A better example would be Frankfurt am Main, which everybody just calls Frankfurt.

Last edited by Chefguy; 07-11-2014 at 10:05 AM.
#34
Old 07-11-2014, 11:12 AM
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I know that a lot of cities in North and Couth America were founded by Spanish colonists or missionaries who gave the original settlements very long names.

The full name of Buenos Aires, Argentina is " Ciudad de la Santísima Trinidad y Puerto de Santa María de los Buenos Aires." (City of the holy Trinity and port of Holy Mary of the fair winds)

And the full name of Los Angeles, California is ""El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula" (village of Our Lady the queen of angels of the Porciúncula River).

Nobody has used those full names in centuries, most likely.
#35
Old 07-11-2014, 11:53 AM
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I think many out-of-state tourists are surprised to visit Kitty Hawk and find that Kill Devil Hills is a separate town. They use Kitty Hawk to encompass both.
#36
Old 07-11-2014, 12:24 PM
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The capital of the Indian state of Kerala appers on maps by its full official name,
Thiruvananthapuram, but i commonly known, by Indians and outsiders alike, as Trivandrum,

Last edited by jtur88; 07-11-2014 at 12:24 PM.
#37
Old 07-11-2014, 12:32 PM
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A number of cities in Canada have been amalgamated into new urbanities, identified by entirely new names..

The larger ones include Saguenay, Quebec, formed in 2002 from Chicoutimi, Jonquiere and La Baie. Thunder Bay, Ontario, was formed in the 1960s from Fort William and Port Arthut.

In the Netherlands, The Hague, Den Haag, and s"Gravenhage are all names for the same city.

Last edited by jtur88; 07-11-2014 at 12:34 PM.
#38
Old 07-11-2014, 12:53 PM
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Austin is sometimes referred to as Waterloo. Also, if you ask about River City, most folks will know what you mean.
#39
Old 07-11-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by UncleRojelio View Post
if you ask about River City, most folks will know what you mean.
Well, we know you've got trouble there.

Last edited by Xema; 07-11-2014 at 01:02 PM.
#40
Old 07-11-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CheshireKat View Post
I think many out-of-state tourists are surprised to visit Kitty Hawk and find that Kill Devil Hills is a separate town. They use Kitty Hawk to encompass both.
Conversely, the resort town near Machu Picchu is officially called Machupicchu, but everyone calls it Aguas Calientes to avoid confusion.
#41
Old 07-11-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The capital of the Indian state of Kerala appers on maps by its full official name,
Thiruvananthapuram, but i commonly known, by Indians and outsiders alike, as Trivandrum,
Similarly, Visakhapatnam is typically just called Vizag (at least by the Indians I know that live and visit there).
#42
Old 07-11-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Green Bean View Post
Are you counting things like where the name in English has changed but some people use the old one? Like Beijing/Peking or Mumbai/Bombay.
Those came about because standard sets of type were intended for English, and anthropologists wanting to transliterate native names for places found they had problems, because some sounds were a lot more common than they were in English, while others were less common, or non-existent. So they would come up with substitutions. I guess "B" is much more common in whatever Chinese dialect calls the city "Beijing," and "j" is common as well, letters that the anthropologists trying to set papers to mail back home, kept running out of. "P" I guess wasn't common, nor was "k" (or maybe "K"), so they used "Peking" for "Beijing." The people who set up the system knew to look at "Peking," and pronounce it "Beijing," but the system got lost.

Eventually, there were better methods of printing, or people could use typewriters, and send one copy of a paper back home, and have it typeset and printed there. But old names people were used to persisted.

It wasn't until the information age, that there was the opportunity to correct old errors, and disseminate correct (or, more correct) pronunciations of city names.

They'll probably never call the dog "Beijinese," though.
#43
Old 07-11-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
All of London is made up of separate political administrations, many (all?) of which have officers called mayors. London is almost more like a US county than a US city. The City of London is unique in several ways but it's definitely a part of the administrative entity of Greater London. If you live in the City of London, you vote for the London Assembly and the Mayor of London just like you do if you live in the City of Westminster or the Borough of Lambeth.
Okay, I knew that the City of London was not a borough of London and had its own municipal administration. I was not aware it also participated in Greater London Authority.
#44
Old 07-11-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Those came about because standard sets of type were intended for English, and anthropologists wanting to transliterate native names for places found they had problems, because some sounds were a lot more common than they were in English, while others were less common, or non-existent. So they would come up with substitutions. I guess "B" is much more common in whatever Chinese dialect calls the city "Beijing," and "j" is common as well, letters that the anthropologists trying to set papers to mail back home, kept running out of. "P" I guess wasn't common, nor was "k" (or maybe "K"), so they used "Peking" for "Beijing." The people who set up the system knew to look at "Peking," and pronounce it "Beijing," but the system got lost.

Eventually, there were better methods of printing, or people could use typewriters, and send one copy of a paper back home, and have it typeset and printed there. But old names people were used to persisted.

It wasn't until the information age, that there was the opportunity to correct old errors, and disseminate correct (or, more correct) pronunciations of city names.

They'll probably never call the dog "Beijinese," though.
Ummm. Is this some sort of whoosh?

In case it isn't, Peking was the Postal Map Romanization of the characters of the city's name, based on the pronunciation of those characters in southern Chinese dialects/languages. These were the first Chinese that westerners had extended contact with and got the name of the capitol from them. The southerners had more or less retained an older pronunciation of the chracters while Mandarin had drifted to the current Beijing.

The "Beijing" romanization became standard when the PRC adopted Pinyin as the standard method to romanize Standard Mandarin. This meant that the standard Mandarin pronunciation was finally being used to romanize the characters.

Nothing whatsoever to do with movable type, typewriters, or the information age.
#45
Old 07-11-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Shawnee-Mission, Kansas, is a suburban Kansas City urban area with a population of 350,000, but does not exist as any kind of an entity, except as a postal address.. It is widely used as a local reference, but actually consists of 15 cities and towns. All of them use Shawnee-Mission KS as their postal address.
Somewhat the same with Normandy, Missouri in suburban St. Louis. Normandy is both a city and an area including a bunch of small towns, villages and various unincorporated bits. They all share a ZIP code and a school district, but Normandy is only a small part of Normandy.
#46
Old 07-11-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
They'll probably never call the dog "Beijinese," though.
Nor will there ever be a dish called Beijing duck.
#47
Old 07-12-2014, 12:40 AM
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Bainbridge Island, WA, before it was incorporated into a single city, was a collection of townships like Winslow, Rolling Bay and Lynwood Center. Some businesses (like Bay Hay & Feed) still use these old names on their letterhead. The ferry between Seattle and Bainbridge had signs calling it "the Winslow ferry" until surprisingly recently, and many residents still call it that.

Reston, VA gobbled up some sparsely-populated prior towns. One of them, Sunset Hills, was in its entirety the A. Smith Bowman Distillery. When its Reston location was still operational (I think they relocated to Fredericksburg in the 90s), it always referred to itself as "Sunset Hills, VA."

Alexandria, VA has some of the most well-defined city limits of any city in Virginia. But its northernmost neighborhoods refer to themselves as "Arlandria" and much of unincorporated Fairfax County directly south and west of it uses "Alexandria" as a mailing address. Neighboring Arlington, technically a county containing one city, still has its neighborhoods referred to as towns (Rosslyn VA, Crystal City VA, etc.).

Some of Washington DC's outer borough residents use the name of the neighborhood/bordering Maryland town in their mailing address (Takoma DC, Chevy Chase DC, Brookland DC, Georgetown DC). This was the correct thing to do until the 1960s, I'm told, when Washington proper was boundaried by Rock Creek and Rhode Island Avenue. Sometime during the LBJ administration, the Territorial Governor position was renamed "Mayor" and everything inside Western, Eastern and Southern Avenues was properly referred to as "Washington." Home Rule was still a few years off and it's still far from absolute.

A buddy of mine used to run a mail-order business in New Jersey and had "Hell Township" on his letterhead. Turns out you can call your city/town/municipality anything you want as long as you get the ZIP Code right.
#48
Old 07-12-2014, 04:23 AM
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[QUOTE=RivkahChaya;17539173]Those came about because standard sets of type were intended for English, and anthropologists wanting to transliterate native names for places found they had problems, because some sounds were a lot more common than they were in English, while others were less common, or non-existent. So they would come up with substitutions. I guess "B" is much more common in whatever Chinese dialect calls the city "Beijing," and "j" is common as well, letters that the anthropologists trying to set papers to mail back home, kept running out of. "P" I guess wasn't common, nor was "k" (or maybe "K"), so they used "Peking" for "Beijing." The people who set up the system knew to look at "Peking," and pronounce it "Beijing," but the system got lost.

/QUOTE]
Minor error in there.. Its not the frequency of the usage, its the number of discrete sounds you want to record.. you want to record two different B's, and you notice that chinese doesn't have any P sounds.. so you use P for your 2nd B sound. Maybe you have a P' if you really want to write P sound P.

Last edited by Isilder; 07-12-2014 at 04:26 AM.
#49
Old 07-12-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Siam Sam View Post
Nor will there ever be a dish called Beijing duck.
The history of Beijing Duck

#50
Old 07-12-2014, 12:12 PM
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In Indiana, there is a place called Ovid or New Columbus, and its welcome signs say so.
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