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#1
Old 03-01-2004, 09:49 PM
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Is "running a yellow light" a punishable offense?

My neighbor claims that a friend of his was recently ticketed for "running a yellow light."

My understanding is that, in most states, a yellow light means prepare to stop, but there is no legal obligation that you must stop on a yellow. Indeed, if you are in the intersection while the light turns RED, you are permitted--in fact, you physically have no choice--but to proceed through the intersection as quickly and safely as possible.

To back up my claim, I pointed out that, traveling at 40 mph, it takes maybe 2/10 of a second to react to a yellow light and another 2-3 seconds to safely stop your vehicle. By that point, you could easily be in--or all the way through--the intersection in question, meaning that "running a yellow light" is sometimes unavoidable. In some circumstances, in fact, I'd argue that the act f stomping on your brakes poses its own public safety dangers.
#2
Old 03-01-2004, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnac the Magnificent!
My neighbor claims that a friend of his was recently ticketed for "running a yellow light."

My understanding is that, in most states, a yellow light means prepare to stop, but there is no legal obligation that you must stop on a yellow. Indeed, if you are in the intersection while the light turns RED, you are permitted--in fact, you physically have no choice--but to proceed through the intersection as quickly and safely as possible.

To back up my claim, I pointed out that, traveling at 40 mph, it takes maybe 2/10 of a second to react to a yellow light and another 2-3 seconds to safely stop your vehicle. By that point, you could easily be in--or all the way through--the intersection in question, meaning that "running a yellow light" is sometimes unavoidable. In some circumstances, in fact, I'd argue that the act f stomping on your brakes poses its own public safety dangers.
I know someone that got a ticket for running a yellow light. They could have stopped, but sped up and got past the line right before it turned to red. So they didn't actually run a red light. But an officer saw them and gave them a ticket, saying that it caused a safety hazard or something of the sort...
#3
Old 03-01-2004, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoo8b
I know someone that got a ticket for running a yellow light. They could have stopped, but sped up and got past the line right before it turned to red. So they didn't actually run a red light. But an officer saw them and gave them a ticket, saying that it caused a safety hazard or something of the sort...
This is in Iowa by the way.
#4
Old 03-01-2004, 10:18 PM
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Years ago I got a ticket for running a yellow light, so yes.

Yellow doesn't mean prepare to stop. It means clear the intersection. I don't know exactly how the law is written, but I'm sure the idea is to clear the intersection in a safe and prudent manner. This could be either by stopping or by proceeding, depending upon one's speed, position, and perhaps other factors.
#5
Old 03-01-2004, 10:28 PM
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Having taken safety and defensive driver courses in New York State, I remember being surprised that it was illegal and not just unsafe to run a yellow light there.

In practice I'm sure that the police have some discretion between "running" a yellow light and not being able to stop for one in time, but the ticket is a legitimate one when they slap you with it.
#6
Old 03-01-2004, 10:33 PM
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The way I was taught (in Victoria, Australia) was:
- Red means stop
- Yellow means stop if you can safely do so.

If your friend could have safely stopped, and didn't do so, then he'd be in the wrong. Obviously, "safely" is always going to be a matter of debate...
#7
Old 03-01-2004, 11:03 PM
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...if this is true... why isn't the light just red?

And why I wasn't taught this in the classroom section of driver's education?

I was taught in the driving section to check my rearview and keep going if there's someone close behind me, stop if there isn't.
#8
Old 03-01-2004, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo the Magic Cow
...if this is true... why isn't the light just red?
If you think about it, surely you can see how an abrubt change from green to red would be rife with problems.

Quote:
And why I wasn't taught this in the classroom section of driver's education?
I dunno. You had a poor instructor? They don't purport to try to teach every single traffic law? They expect you to read the state's driver's handbook?
#9
Old 03-01-2004, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo the Magic Cow
...if this is true... why isn't the light just red?

And why I wasn't taught this in the classroom section of driver's education?

I was taught in the driving section to check my rearview and keep going if there's someone close behind me, stop if there isn't.
I once came across a traffic signal that was malfunctioning and went directly from green to red.

Scared me to death.
#10
Old 03-01-2004, 11:37 PM
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Yellow means "stop if it's safe to do so" here (Darwin) as well and also in New Zealand.

I think people get in trouble with the law when they think that yellow means "speed up and try and get through the intersection before the light goes red"

If you have to speed up to make the intersection, then you certainly had plenty of time to stop.
#11
Old 03-01-2004, 11:52 PM
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Most police officers that I know view persons who are traveling at a legal speed who can safely stop when presented with a yellow signal should do so. If you're beyond the cross walk or too close to safely stop, then proceding through is the better option. These same officers take into account vehicle size, e.g. a tractor trailer has greater yellow light latitude than a Kia.

As one officer expressed to me: I'd rather have someone in a large truck go pink and maintain control of their vehicle, than have then lose it in the intersection.
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#12
Old 03-01-2004, 11:58 PM
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There's also a question of what's meant by "running a yellow light". It could mean "I entered the intersection while the light was yellow and exited the intersection while it was still yellow," which is certainly legal in many states, and it could mean "I entered the intersection while the light was yellow and it turned red before I got all the way through," which is certainly illegal in some if not all states. The latter used to be legal in California up until sometime in the 90's -- the rule was that as long as the light was not red when you entered the intersection, you were ok (barring other circumstances like traffic causing you to stop in the intersection). They changed that law so that you're illegal if the light is red at any point during your travel through the intersection.
#13
Old 03-02-2004, 12:16 AM
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I got a ticket for "speeding up for a yellow', at least that's how the officer explained it. I saw the don't walk indicators change, which is a precursor to the signal change. I accelerated (while not speeding) and made my left turn.

The officer stated that what I did was illegal, and I asked him how I could contest this ticket. I ended up speaking with his chief who said "even if you were in the middle of the intersection, stopped, you would still have the right of way for a left turn". Since I remained under the posted speed limit, and there was nobody else around, I satisfied the "proceed with caution" requirement of going through a yellow light.

Turns out that the cop never even turned the ticket in, probably since I had let him know that I planned on contesting it. It seems to make some cops mad when you do such things, as he took the time to write me this ticket in a downpour of rain.

My advice is, if you can't talk your way out of the ticket, ask for specifics on contesting the ticket. It's better than getting a moving violation and a fine.
#14
Old 03-02-2004, 12:22 AM
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How the crap do you quote with this system?

Anway, BobT made a comment about a scary traffic light incident that compels me to share my own.

I came upon an intersection between a state and federal highway one day while some road work was going on. People were working on the traffic lights, and officers had been directing traffic.

I pulled up just as the crew was wrapping things up. The lights were changed to red in all directions, and the police moved out of the intersection. They were preparing to start the regular traffic cycle again.

Whether by accident or just by some function of the traffic light system restarting, ALL the red lights in every direction started flashing at the same time. Wouldn't you know it, half a dozen cars lurched out into the intersection and almost ran into each other. Not five seconds after this, the regular cycle began and nobody knew what to do because these impatient idiots were all sitting cockeyed in the intersection trying to figure out who should go when. Good thing the police were close by. I can't imagine how many tickets those guys got to write that day.
#15
Old 03-02-2004, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Meka Leka Hi Meka Hiney Ho
How the crap do you quote with this system?
Like this: <quote><i>Originally posted by blah blah blah</i>
Blah blah blah blah blah, lol!</quote> except that you use [ ] instead of < >.

You end up with
Quote:
Originally posted by blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah, lol!
There's a whole section on coding in the About This Message Board forum.
#16
Old 03-02-2004, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galt
There's also a question of what's meant by "running a yellow light". It could mean "I entered the intersection while the light was yellow and exited the intersection while it was still yellow," which is certainly legal in many states, and it could mean "I entered the intersection while the light was yellow and it turned red before I got all the way through," which is certainly illegal in some if not all states. The latter used to be legal in California up until sometime in the 90's -- the rule was that as long as the light was not red when you entered the intersection, you were ok (barring other circumstances like traffic causing you to stop in the intersection). They changed that law so that you're illegal if the light is red at any point during your travel through the intersection.
(bolding mine)
Me thinks you got this backward. Wecome to California land where everybody enters intersections very pinkish.
From the California vehicle code
Quote:
21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow
signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is
ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately
thereafter.
21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision
(b).
Back when I got my DL here in California (1967) it was illegal to leave the intersection on a red light. My buddy failed his driver's test for that. (entered yellow, turned red while still in the intersection)
Now as long as it is not red when you cross the limit line you are legal, not safe IMHO, but legal.
#17
Old 03-02-2004, 08:09 PM
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Interesting. That's definitely what I was told (by a traffic school teacher, no less), but I must have been misinformed.

Not to say you're wrong, but the law you've cited doesn't actually settle this question definitively. It prohibits entering the intersection on a red light (implying that it is, at least under some circumstances, ok to enter on a yellow light), but it doesn't say anything about whether you need to give yourself enough time to get all the way through the intersection before the light turns red. Since I can't find any CA law which says anything about that issue, I'll concede that being in the intersection while the light turns red must not be prohibited.
#18
Old 03-02-2004, 09:18 PM
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You can add to that the fact that red light cameras are only triggered when someone enters the intersection AFTER the light has turned red.
#19
Old 03-02-2004, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meka Leka Hi Meka Hiney Ho
How the crap do you quote with this system?
Bottom right corner of the post, the "reply" button.
#20
Old 03-02-2004, 09:59 PM
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Wow! Never did I expect such contradictory and complex answers.

Problem is, this should be crystal-clear. Given the gravity of the matter--and the number of ticketed persons annually--there shouldn't be any doubt on this topic. It should be written in stone. The fact that more than 15 experienced SDMB drivers hold opposing views doesn't make sense to me at all.

Sure, a particular state may have an odd twist, but can anyone explain why the applicable laws aren't common knowledge? We're not talking quantum mechanics here.
#21
Old 03-03-2004, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnac the Magnificent!
Wow! Never did I expect such contradictory and complex answers.

Problem is, this should be crystal-clear. Given the gravity of the matter--and the number of ticketed persons annually--there shouldn't be any doubt on this topic. It should be written in stone. The fact that more than 15 experienced SDMB drivers hold opposing views doesn't make sense to me at all.

Sure, a particular state may have an odd twist, but can anyone explain why the applicable laws aren't common knowledge? We're not talking quantum mechanics here.
Not all traffic laws can be crystal clear. How fast is "too fast for conditions" or "reasonable and prudent"? How close is "following too close"? Some things cannot be feasibly quantified.
#22
Old 03-03-2004, 08:10 AM
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I don't know if anyone is interested to know but I am telling anyway:
In Germany it is legal to run a yellow light. You should stop but if you don't it does not matter as you can only be fined if the light has been red longer than a second.
#23
Old 03-03-2004, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chak
I don't know if anyone is interested to know but I am telling anyway:
In Germany it is legal to run a yellow light. You should stop but if you don't it does not matter as you can only be fined if the light has been red longer than a second.
The second part is wrong. You can be fined 50 during the first second and 125 after that.

Cite (in German)
#24
Old 03-03-2004, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkl12
The second part is wrong. You can be fined 50 during the first second and 125 after that.

Cite (in German)
Well, that's news to me. I don't know if that's new or not enforced at any time.
I have run a red light a few years ago and was caught because it was a junction with one of these automatic cameras for red light offences. No fine.
#25
Old 03-03-2004, 11:47 AM
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Well, in the UK amber means stop (highway code linky with helpful diagrams ) with the disclaimer that
Quote:
You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident
As to what a driver would be charged/ticketed with, I couldn't say with enough degree of certainty that I would post it GQ.
#26
Old 03-03-2004, 12:37 PM
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The Ontario Highway Traffic Act says:

"Amber light

(15) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular amber indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (15)."

"Penalty for disobeying red or amber light

(31.2) Every person who contravenes subsection (15) or (18) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $150 and not more than $500. 1998, c. 5, s. 26."

Obviously, there is an element of judgment involved in section 15, but it is clear that "running" the light (proceeding without caution or when you can safely stop) is punishable in Ontario.
#27
Old 03-03-2004, 12:51 PM
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I live in Virginia. Years ago I got a ticket for going through a yellow light. I am given to understand that in Virginia, yellow really means stop. I was told that if my front wheels are past the white line, it is ok to proceed through the intersection; anything less than that requires you to stop.

Haven't had to take a driving test in years so I don't know what the law states these days. Whatever it is, it is not one of those things that is rigorously enforced. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone (besides myself) physically stopped for going through a yellow (or red for that matter).
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#28
Old 03-03-2004, 03:04 PM
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My husband got pulled over for running a yellow light a few weeks ago. I was with him in the car. The cop told us that in Michigan the law requires that you at least attempt to stop for a yellow light and if you just run it outright it is the same offense and penalty as running a red light.

The way it seems to be enforced as a whole around here is that cops will generally let it go as long as the light is yellow the whole time you are in the intersection, but if it turns red and you are not clear then you could be SOL.

He got off with a warning for it, though.
#29
Old 03-03-2004, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Now as long as it is not red when you cross the limit line you are legal, not safe IMHO, but legal.
This matches what I was told by a Los Angeles County Sheriff deputy about a year ago. My wife and I were witnesses to an accident in which this was an issue, and after things calmed down I asked him what the law was.

In trying to piece together what happened in the accident, and who (if anyone) to cite, the various officers present became focused on one particular item: Was the light red or yellow at the moment when the vehicle crossed the limit line? They were very interested in finding a witness who could answer that specific question with some certainty.
#30
Old 03-03-2004, 05:58 PM
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I once had a physics question used by traffic planners based on Calilfornia law:

How long must a yellow light be for an intersection of length X, speed limit Y, and assumed stopping distance (including reaction time) of Z.

Yellow lights are (supposed to be) timed so that you should be able to stop on a yellow or, if you're too close, go completely through the intersection before it turns red. The only reason to be in the intersection when it's red is if you were speeding (increased stopping distance) or just didn't stop for the yellow. (Barring interruptions like pedestrias, emegency vehicles, etc.)

Makes good theoretical sense.
#31
Old 03-03-2004, 06:30 PM
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Here's what the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices has to say in the U.S. Scroll down to "Steady yellow signal indications shall have the following meanings:"

MUTDC

Last time I checked (years ago), my state had adopted either the MUTDC, or something pretty close to it. My understanding is as long as you enter the intersection while it is yellow, it is legal.
#32
Old 03-03-2004, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chak
I have run a red light a few years ago and was caught because it was a junction with one of these automatic cameras for red light offences. No fine.
Probably just that the camera had run out of film.
#33
Old 03-03-2004, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
You can add to that the fact that red light cameras are only triggered when someone enters the intersection AFTER the light has turned red.
I can confirm this, as there are a few of these some blocks from my house, and I see them get triggered all the time. In some places there are periods where all lights are red, in order to give time for people to clear the intersection, but for the most part drivers have learned to wait on a green.

I don't have evidence for this, but it is my impression that yellow lights have gotten longer to allow people entering on the yellow to clear, which has just made the situation worse. I've stopped at times when the light changes to yellow, and feel I've been there a long time before it goes red.
#34
Old 03-03-2004, 07:17 PM
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Here in the UK, it's against the rules to enter an intersection if it's not possible to clear it without stopping - you're supposed to wait at the lights until there's sufficient space. It's all too often ignored, very quickly causing unnecessary traffic chaos.

The exception is if you're turning right (note: = left for everyone else, ie crossing traffic), and the only reason for you to wait in the intersection is for a gap in oncoming traffic. The lights have an extra phase of a couple of seconds (red - red & amber - green) which gives time to turn before the other route goes green if necessary.
#35
Old 03-03-2004, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaMan
Here in the UK, it's against the rules to enter an intersection if it's not possible to clear it without stopping - you're supposed to wait at the lights until there's sufficient space. It's all too often ignored, very quickly causing unnecessary traffic chaos.
Here also. In fact in New York City this is a big offense, because those in the intersection when the light turns red prevent others from moving, possibly causing gridlock. Even in California some of the worse intersections have signs about this. I got blocked by a clown not able to proceed in a left turn lane this very morning.

Made me wish I drove a tank.
#36
Old 03-03-2004, 08:29 PM
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The law is not crystal clear so that a certain amount of interpretation can be made by the officer at the time of the traffic stop. Usually, if you are ticketed for this offense, you went through the intersection in what they judged as a careless manner. (OR if they have a quota to meet this month...)

In New Jersey, if you stop for a yellow light, you are going to get hit from behind. No question. The drivers behind you EXPECT you to go through.
#37
Old 03-03-2004, 08:49 PM
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I took a Driver's Safety course once (in New York State) to get a better auto insureance rate and we were told in the class that, there's no such thing as a yellow light!

You're either going on green or you're preparing to stop.
#38
Old 03-03-2004, 09:02 PM
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Unless, of course, you simply fail to see the light change from green to yellow until some time has elapsed, such as when you are checking rear view mirrors, looking at the speedometer, or chatting blithely on your cell phone while grinning like an idiot at the cheerleaders doing a car wash for camp funds.

California and Ohio have virtually the same language regarding traffic lights and the meaning of yellow. I recall one time a few years back on this issue finding a statute that implied that it was illegal to impede the flow of traffic across an intersection after the light had turned red; now I can't find hide nor hair of this beast. I'll still poke around, but likely most cases where a person has been told that he/she can't "run a yellow light" they were really being told that certain types of driving in that situation will be considered reckless or otherwise unsafe. Unless anyone can find a statute that explicitly makes entering an intersection while the light is yellow, or being in an intersection when it turns red, illegal, then it would appear that there is no such actual violation in this country.
#39
Old 03-03-2004, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Unless anyone can find a statute that explicitly makes entering an intersection while the light is yellow, or being in an intersection when it turns red, illegal, then it would appear that there is no such actual violation in this country.
I defer to your legal expertise but, if your interpretation is correct, why hasn't this absence of statutory regulation been challenged again and again in court?

Couldn't someone argue that the courts are essentially engaged in what is tantamount to fraud by ruling against yellow-light runners in the absence of laws making such light-running illegal?

A final question: Does the absence of specific yellow-light-running statues mean that police officers do NOT have the power to decide what driving behaviors are dangerous and unlawful?
#40
Old 03-04-2004, 08:14 AM
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Sorry, Carnac the Magnificent!, I think you missed my point. I didn't say that driving into an intersection while the light was yellow couldn't be a violation of the law. I said that, in the absence of a statute making that action per se a violation of the law, then officers would have to apply other statutes with a more generalized purpose, such as reckless driving prohibitions. The accused may not realize what the code section referenced on the ticket actually proscribes.

And you don't see appellate cases regarding traffic laws usually because states don't offer an automatic appeal from a vehicle code violation trial. Trials rarely occur because most people simply pay their fine and move on with life. I am certain that there are, however, plenty of people who do challenge the interpretation of the officer regarding such things as unsafe driving; I'll leave it to someone who has perhaps sat as a traffic court judge to talk about how successful such challenges are.
#41
Old 03-18-2004, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Unless anyone can find a statute that explicitly makes entering an intersection while the light is yellow, or being in an intersection when it turns red, illegal, then it would appear that there is no such actual violation in this country.
From Michigan:

Quote:
(b) If the signal exhibits a steady yellow indication, vehicular traffic facing the signal shall stop before entering the nearest crosswalk at the intersection or at a limit line when marked, but if the stop cannot be made in safety, a vehicle may be driven cautiously through the intersection
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#42
Old 03-18-2004, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Sorry, Carnac the Magnificent! ... in the absence of a statute making (driving into an intersection while the light was yellow) per se a violation of the law, then officers would have to apply other statutes with a more generalized purpose, such as reckless driving prohibitions.
I wonder if this is what's happening when people get tickets for "running yellows" in the New Orleans. Common knowledge is that one can expect a ticket when accelerating through a yellow light in an effort to beat the red, whereas coasting through a yellow is considered safe. Drivers get tickets that way all the time in N.O.

I've never seen one of these tickets with my own two eyes. Maybe it is a reckless-driving violation.
#43
Old 03-18-2004, 09:09 AM
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#44
Old 03-18-2004, 10:08 AM
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Gfactor, great job! Precisely the language we are looking for... now if you could perhaps let us in on the secret as to which code section? Pretty please?
#45
Old 03-18-2004, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Gfactor, great job! Precisely the language we are looking for... now if you could perhaps let us in on the secret as to which code section? Pretty please?
Ok, but it's gonna cost you . . .

Mich. Comp. Laws. section 257.612(1)(b)

The analogous statute in Ohio is Ohio Rev. Code section 4511.13(B):

Quote:
4511.13. Signal lights.





Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic control signals exhibiting different colored lights, or colored lighted arrows, successively one at a time or in combination, only the colors green, red, and yellow shall be used, except for special pedestrian signals carrying words or symbols, and said lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles, streetcars, and trackless trolleys, and to pedestrians as follows:





(A) Green indication:





(1) Vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a circular green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at such place prohibits either such turn. But vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys, including vehicles, streetcars, and trackless trolleys turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles, streetcars, trackless trolleys, and pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time such signal is exhibited.





(2) Vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time. Such vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.





(3) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal, as provided in section 4511.14 of the Revised Code, pedestrians facing any green signal, except when the sole green signal is a turn arrow, may proceed across the roadway within any marked or unmarked crosswalk.





(B) Steady yellow indication:





(1) Vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal are thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys shall not enter the intersection.





(2) Pedestrians facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in section 4511.14 of the Revised Code, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.





(C) Steady red indication:





(1) Vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a steady red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in divisions (C)(2) and (3) of this section.





(2) Unless a sign is in place prohibiting a right turn as provided in division (C)(5) of this section, vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a steady red signal may cautiously enter the intersection to make a right turn after stopping as required by division (C)(1) of this section. Such vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.





(3) Unless a sign is in place prohibiting a left turn as provided in division (C)(5) of this section, vehicular traffic, streetcars, and trackless trolleys facing a steady red signal on a one-way street that intersects another one-way street on which traffic moves to the left may cautiously enter the intersection to make a left turn into the one-way street after stopping as required by division (C)(1) of this section, and yielding the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.





(4) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in section 4511.14 of the Revised Code, pedestrians facing a steady red signal alone shall not enter the roadway.





(5) Local authorities may by ordinance, or the director of transportation on state highways may, prohibit a right or a left turn against a steady red signal at any intersection, which shall be effective when signs giving notice thereof are posted at the intersection.





(D) In the event an official traffic-control signal is erected and maintained at a place other than an intersection, the provisions of this section shall be applicable except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Any stop required shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made, but in the absence of any such sign or marking the stop shall be made at the signal.
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#46
Old 03-18-2004, 11:21 AM
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Indian Land, S Carolina
Posts: 13,075
Hmmm, I already knew the Ohio code section; if you read my prior postings you'll see that I noted that Ohio and California have essentially the same wording, which does not make it illegal to proceed through a yellow light.

Thanks for the Michigan code section citation.
#47
Old 03-18-2004, 11:25 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Hmmm, I already knew the Ohio code section; if you read my prior postings you'll see that I noted that Ohio and California have essentially the same wording, which does not make it illegal to proceed through a yellow light.

Thanks for the Michigan code section citation.
Oh, yeah. You are right. Sorry.
#48
Old 03-18-2004, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: is french for rental
Posts: 5,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnac the Magnificent!
Sure, a particular state may have an odd twist, but can anyone explain why the applicable laws aren't common knowledge? We're not talking quantum mechanics here.
Because what you need to do to earn your driver's license varies from place to place.

Did you need to take lessons, and if so, how many hours in a classroom and how many on the road?
How many answers are you allowed to get wrong when doing the written portion of your exam? Did you end up getting caught going through a yellow during your practical exam?

Then you also have what the law says, and what the local drivers actually do, which can be two very different things. Fr'instance, the 'vancouver left turn' means drive into the intersection while it's green, and sit there waiting until no one is coming in the direction before turning left-- even if the light has been solid red for 5 seconds. It's legal, and everyone does it in Vancouver, but it's mighty odd.
#49
Old 03-18-2004, 01:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian
Because what you need to do to earn your driver's license varies from place to place.

Did you need to take lessons, and if so, how many hours in a classroom and how many on the road?
How many answers are you allowed to get wrong when doing the written portion of your exam? Did you end up getting caught going through a yellow during your practical exam?

Then you also have what the law says, and what the local drivers actually do, which can be two very different things. Fr'instance, the 'vancouver left turn' means drive into the intersection while it's green, and sit there waiting until no one is coming in the direction before turning left-- even if the light has been solid red for 5 seconds. It's legal, and everyone does it in Vancouver, but it's mighty odd.

The do it here in MI, too.
#50
Old 03-18-2004, 05:24 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Industrial NorthEast
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian
Then you also have what the law says, and what the local drivers actually do, which can be two very different things. Fr'instance, the 'vancouver left turn' means drive into the intersection while it's green, and sit there waiting until no one is coming in the direction before turning left-- even if the light has been solid red for 5 seconds. It's legal, and everyone does it in Vancouver, but it's mighty odd.
That's pretty common I would suppose everywhere, since during peak travel hours on major roads a vehicle turning across traffic at an intersection without a protected arrow phase may otherwise have to wait many light cycles until there's a break in opposing traffic. This way, at least one vehicle gets through per light cycle.
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