Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
#1
Old 02-07-2005, 04:48 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cardiff, EU
Posts: 6,337
Political Compass #51: Astrology accurately explains many things.

Many political debates here have included references to The Political Compass, which uses a set of 61 questions to assess one’s political orientation in terms of economic left/right and social libertarianism/authoritarianism (rather like the “Libertarian diamond” popular in the US).

And so, every so often I will begin a thread in which the premise for debate is one of the 61 questions. I will give which answer I chose and provide my justification and reasoning. Others are, of course, invited to do the same including those who wish to “question the question”, as it were.

It would also be useful when posting in these threads to give your own “compass reading” in your first post, by convention giving the Economic value first. My own is
SentientMeat: Economic: -5.12, Social: -7.28, and so by the above convention my co-ordinates are (-5.12, -7.28). Please also indicate which option you ticked. I might suggest what I think is the “weighting” given to the various answers in terms of calculating the final orientation, but seeing for yourself what kind of answers are given by those with a certain score might be more useful than second-guessing the test’s scoring system.

Now, I appreciate that there is often dissent regarding whether the assessment the test provides is valid, notably by US conservative posters, either because it is “left-biased” (??) or because some propositions are clearly slanted, ambiguous or self-contradictory. The site itself provides answers to these and other Frequently Asked Questions, and there is also a separate thread: Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading? Read these first and then, if you have an objection to the test in general, please post it there. If your objection is solely to the proposition in hand, post here. If your objection is to other propositions, please wait until I open a thread on them. (And for heaven’s sake, please don’t quote this entire Opening Post when replying like this sufferer of bandwidth diarrhea.)

The above will be pasted in every new thread in order to introduce it properly, and I’ll try to let each one exhaust itself of useful input before starting the next. Without wanting to “hog the idea”, I would be grateful if others could refrain from starting similar threads. Finally, I advise you to read the full proposition below, not just the thread title (which is necessarily abbreviated), and request that you debate my entire OP rather than simply respond, “IMHO”-like, to the proposition itself.

To date, the threads are:

Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading?
Political Compass #1: Globalisation, Humanity and OmniCorp.
#2: My country, right or wrong
#3: Pride in one’s country is foolish.
#4: Superior racial qualities.
#5: My enemy's enemy is my friend.
#6: Justifying illegal military action.
#7: “Info-tainment” is a worrying trend.
#8: Class division vs. international division. (+ SentientMeat’s economic worldview)
#9: Inflation vs. unemployment.
#10: Corporate respect of the environment.
#11: From each according to his ability, to each according to need.
#12: Sad reflections in branded drinking water.
#13: Land should not be bought and sold.
#14: Many personal fortunes contribute nothing to society.
#15: Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade.
#16: Shareholder profit is a company's only responsibility.
#17: The rich are too highly taxed.
#18: Better healthcare for those who can pay for it.
#19: Penalising businesses which mislead the public.
#20: The freer the market, the freer the people.
#21: Abortion should be illegal.
#22: All authority must be questioned.
#23: An eye for an eye.
#24: Taxpayers should not prop up theatres or museums.
#25: Schools shouldn’t make attendance compulsory.
#26: Different kinds of people should keep to their own.
#27: Good parents sometimes have to spank their children.
#28: It’s natural for children to keep secrets.
#29: Marijuana should be legalised.
#30: School’s prime function is equipping kids to find jobs.
#31: Seriously disabled people should not reproduce.
#32: Learning discipline is the most important thing.
#33: ‘Savage peoples’ vs. ‘different culture’
#34: Society should not support those who refuse to work.
#35: Keep cheerfully busy when troubled.
#36: First generation immigrants can never be fully integrated.
#37: What's good for corporations is always good for everyone.
#38: No broadcasting institution should receive public funding.
#39: Our civil rights are being excessively curbed re. terrorism.
#40: One party states avoid delays to progress.
#41: Only wrongdoers need worry about official surveillance.
#42: The death penalty should be an option for serious crimes.
#43: Society must have people above to be obeyed.
#44: Abstract art that doesn't represent anything isn't art at all.
#45: Punishment is more important than rehabilitation.
#46: It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals.
#47: Businessmen are more important than writers and artists.
#48: A mother's first duty is to be a homemaker.
#49: Companies exploit the Third World's plant genetic resources.
#50: Mature people make peace with the establishment.




Proposition #51: Astrology accurately explains many things.

SentientMeat
(-5.12, -7.28) ticks Strongly Disagree.


Things like... what, exactly? Why people are so gullible? How the misinformed live their lives? That humans evolved cognition far in advance of their ability to understand how they did so, and could therefore only grasp at superstitious straws for thousands of years?

The infinitessimal gravitational influence on my body of the other planets as they line up with stars of vastly differing proximity in optical illusions called “constellations” explains precisely nothing, I’m afraid. (I suppose that, say, children born in winter might tend to have some slight characteristic difference to those born in summer, but this is surely not what #51 has in mind?)

As for the political relevance of this proposition, well, I’d be grateful of an accurate explanation from anyone, thanks very much. Surely the Compass-designers are not correlating astrology with open-mindedness and thus social liberalism? If so, our minds would unfortunately be so open that our brains would fall out! Conversely, are they associating such gullibility with authoritarianism, since tyrants only come to power by pulling the wool over the eyes of the people to some extent? This is not particularly convincing either: authoritarian tyrants and emperors did put much stock in such mumbo-jumbo, but so do Nancy Reagan and Cherie Blair. And surely this proposition cannot have any economic significance?

I feel that this is the one (and only one, in my opinion) proposition where they have genuinely fucked up. Writers, I beseech you, bin this nonsense!
#2
Old 02-07-2005, 05:26 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 4,365
(-0.5, -2) Totally disagree.

Utter hogwash. Irrational belief in magic and mysticism is a mark of the closed society. "Feng shui" and lucky days/dates are bunkum.

Gung Hei Fat Choy to one and all! Off to Bangkok for a little R&R now.
#3
Old 02-07-2005, 05:50 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Monkey
Posts: 9,652
Dividing people up into different supopsed characters by the dates and times of their birth is no more sensible than doing so by the color of their skin, and no more laudable. While the PC is characteristically sloppy in phrasing the question, I get what it's going at, and I totaly disagree.
#4
Old 02-07-2005, 06:01 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
(7, -1 or thereabouts)

Strongly agree
Astrology is excellent at predicting whom are the fools.

As for political relevance. Without any proof whatsoever (and with obvious exceptions, such as Nancy Reagan) it is my impression that, in the west, beliefs in such things as astrology, numerology, Feng Shui and other bullshit is more prevalent on the leftist/liberal wing than amongst more political right and right thinking individuals.
#5
Old 02-07-2005, 06:02 AM
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 38,652
I am honestly curious as to how this question in any way predicts one's place on the political compass. It's quite out of place.
#6
Old 02-07-2005, 06:18 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Irish in Paris
Posts: 933
-3.50 -3.64

Strongly Disagree

This thread is a waste of space. The force of gravity due to the doctor that delivered me is greater than the effect of any planet, anywhere.
#7
Old 02-07-2005, 06:24 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Monkey
Posts: 9,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
I am honestly curious as to how this question in any way predicts one's place on the political compass. It's quite out of place.
The point, I don't doubt, lies in correlation over a large number of questions, not direct one to one correspondance to any one question.
#8
Old 02-07-2005, 10:13 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 16,834
Agree

Quote:
Astrology is excellent at predicting whom are the fools.
What else can I say!
#9
Old 02-07-2005, 10:46 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 6,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
I am honestly curious as to how this question in any way predicts one's place on the political compass. It's quite out of place.
I bet it applies to how a person submits to unknowable forces in the universe, i.e. where on the authoritarian scale you may reside.

Economic Left/Right: 3.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.44
Strongly Disagree
#10
Old 02-07-2005, 11:16 AM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 81,892
+7/-3 Stongly disagree.

I have nothing to add to what has already been said.
#11
Old 02-07-2005, 11:20 AM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 9,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Strongly agree
Astrology is excellent at predicting whom are the fools.
As usual, Heinlein said it first. From The Notebooks of Lazurus Long:

"A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" -find out how he feels about astrology"
#12
Old 02-07-2005, 11:32 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,992
I was somewhere in the middle...I think it was something like 1 and .7, or something.

Disagree, for the reasons mentioned.
#13
Old 02-07-2005, 11:56 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay
I am honestly curious as to how this question in any way predicts one's place on the political compass. It's quite out of place.
I agree. I wonder how they use the response to this question in the scoring?
#14
Old 02-07-2005, 11:57 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 35,257
:shrugs:

Strongly disagree, for reasons already stated.

But I would like to see what Agree on this question correlates to. I doubt that gullibility correlates much with Left vs. Right vs. Authoritarian vs. Whatever. Maybe someone with more patience than me can go back and retake the test and Agree Strongly with this question, and see what changes.

Regards,
Shodan
#15
Old 02-07-2005, 12:25 PM
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 32,576
Strongly disagree...utter bullshit.

I also am curious what this question is supposed to tell the makers about us individually. At a guess it shows their own bias, as (again guessing) they most likely put anyone who agree's in the 'ignorant right winger' category and update their score accordingly. This would be only a half truth as a lot of the new age types are heavily left wing...but believe in this BS as well.

-XT
#16
Old 02-07-2005, 12:39 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cardiff, EU
Posts: 6,337
Following Shodan's suggestion: Ticking all Strongly Disagrees gives (0.00, -4.36). Ticking all Strongly Disagrees except #51, and ticking Strongly Agree instead, gives (0.00, -3.90).

Thus, strong agreement with #51 gives you an enormous 0.46 nudge away from libertarianism. They must indeed be associating gullibility with authoritarianism, and considering right and left wings irrelevant here.
#17
Old 02-07-2005, 01:41 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentientMeat
Following Shodan's suggestion: Ticking all Strongly Disagrees gives (0.00, -4.36). Ticking all Strongly Disagrees except #51, and ticking Strongly Agree instead, gives (0.00, -3.90).

Thus, strong agreement with #51 gives you an enormous 0.46 nudge away from libertarianism. They must indeed be associating gullibility with authoritarianism, and considering right and left wings irrelevant here.
Makes sense that how someone answers this question would reveal nothing about economic politics. Thus they are considering being gullible with favoring authoritarianism.
#18
Old 02-07-2005, 01:53 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 78,508
(-5.13, -6.36) Strongly disagree -- and, like many others in this thread, I can't see the political relevance of this question.
#19
Old 02-07-2005, 01:53 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentientMeat
Following Shodan's suggestion: Ticking all Strongly Disagrees gives (0.00, -4.36). Ticking all Strongly Disagrees except #51, and ticking Strongly Agree instead, gives (0.00, -3.90).

Thus, strong agreement with #51 gives you an enormous 0.46 nudge away from libertarianism. They must indeed be associating gullibility with authoritarianism, and considering right and left wings irrelevant here.
I tried the test with all "Strongly Agree", and also with ticking "Strongly Agree" except for #51 as "Strongly Disagree".

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.36

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.95

Apparently this test is set up that strongly agreeing or disagreeing with everything puts you right in the center economically.
#20
Old 02-07-2005, 02:37 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 2001
Location: In another castle
Posts: 18,988
There may have been some validity to astrology in societies where a person's diet varies with the season (due to the possible effects on a developing fetus of the mother's diet), but not anymore.

IIRC, one of the classic authoritarian personality traits is a lack of skepticism/introversion. That may explain the presence of this question.
#21
Old 02-07-2005, 03:14 PM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Bay
Posts: 81,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfgdxm
I tried the test with all "Strongly Agree", and also with ticking "Strongly Agree" except for #51 as "Strongly Disagree".

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.36

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.95

Apparently this test is set up that strongly agreeing or disagreeing with everything puts you right in the center economically.
Several TPC threads back, I went thru and took the test with the same response to all queations and you get:

Strong Dis: 0.00/-4.36
Strong Agr: 0.00/4.36
Disagree: -0.25/-2.41
Agree: 0.38/2.41

Which I thought was a bit odd since there was an asymmetry in the last two, indicating a slight bias to the right half of the economic spectrum.
#22
Old 02-07-2005, 03:58 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace
Several TPC threads back, I went thru and took the test with the same response to all queations and you get:

Strong Dis: 0.00/-4.36
Strong Agr: 0.00/4.36
Disagree: -0.25/-2.41
Agree: 0.38/2.41

Which I thought was a bit odd since there was an asymmetry in the last two, indicating a slight bias to the right half of the economic spectrum.
The big problem with a test like this: WHERE do you put the center? Take a look at http://digitalronin.f2s.com/poli...uselection.php. They have Kerry somewhat on the economic right. Thus the last presidential election was a matter of how far to the right economically does the voter want? By world standards, the US tends to be farther to the right than most of Europe. Consider health care. Getting rid of national health care in Europe would be an extremely unpopular idea.
#23
Old 02-07-2005, 04:43 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
(-7.38, -8.34)

Astrology is complete bunk.

I imagine that the question would indicate a certain capability for irrational beliefs, superstitions, and religious credulity. It may also indicate a vulnerability to emotionally based political appeals.
#24
Old 02-07-2005, 07:30 PM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Himalayas & California
Posts: 6,766
(nearly 0, nearly 0)

It's all about astronomy, not astrology. And other comments already made.
#25
Old 02-07-2005, 07:52 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 14,789
-3.0 -2.8 or something like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
I imagine that the question would indicate a certain capability for irrational beliefs, superstitions, and religious credulity. It may also indicate a vulnerability to emotionally based political appeals.
The thing is, how the fug do you map that onto political bipole axes? Neither right nor left have a monopoly on appeal to emotion and irrational fears, nor on surrendering independent thought to "leaders who know better". For instance, conventional Christian religiosity has a tendency to map conservative, but conversely it doctrinally spurns astrology and psychics; and churchmen are as often on the front lines of liberation or social-reform movements as on the picket lines against social liberalization.
#26
Old 02-07-2005, 09:01 PM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 10,581
[QUOTE=roger thornhill "Feng shui" and lucky days/dates are bunkum.

[/QUOTE]


-5.62, -5.49

Well, feng shui isn't complete bullshit. There actually is some validity to the correlation between how certain pieces of furniture are placed and how comfortable one feels in a room. For example, few people like to be seated with their backs to a door or large open space.

But other than that, yeah, astrology and the like are complete and utter wastes of time.
#27
Old 02-07-2005, 09:04 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRDelirious
-3.0 -2.8 or something like that

The thing is, how the fug do you map that onto political bipole axes? Neither right nor left have a monopoly on appeal to emotion and irrational fears, nor on surrendering independent thought to "leaders who know better". For instance, conventional Christian religiosity has a tendency to map conservative, but conversely it doctrinally spurns astrology and psychics; and churchmen are as often on the front lines of liberation or social-reform movements as on the picket lines against social liberalization.
I don't know how it would indicate anything right or left but after further reflection, I wonder if they're looking for contradiction/consistency in supernatural beliefs. Perhaps a yes to overtly religious religious questions and a no to astrology could indicate some sort of regimented enculturation or prejudice?

Or maybe a consistent no to ALL questions of supernatural belief skews one way or the other?

I don't know but I'm guessing that question is only meanigful in context with other questions.
#28
Old 02-07-2005, 09:24 PM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canberra ACT Australia
Posts: 1,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrafilter
There may have been some validity to astrology in societies where a person's diet varies with the season (due to the possible effects on a developing fetus of the mother's diet), but not anymore.
I see your point, but astrology claims that the differences have to do with the alignment of planets and stars (or something). Proponents never mention Earthly seasonal variations.

If your statement were true, surely astrological charts would be opposite (or at least very different) for the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. Also differences would exist for tropical and temperate zones, etc.

I realise you are not supporting astrology, but I feel that conceding that it "may have had some validity" gives it a tiny bit of credence, which is a tiny bit more than it deserves.
#29
Old 02-07-2005, 09:59 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentientMeat
Following Shodan's suggestion: Ticking all Strongly Disagrees gives (0.00, -4.36). Ticking all Strongly Disagrees except #51, and ticking Strongly Agree instead, gives (0.00, -3.90).

Thus, strong agreement with #51 gives you an enormous 0.46 nudge away from libertarianism. They must indeed be associating gullibility with authoritarianism, and considering right and left wings irrelevant here.
This shows some correlation between belief in astrology and political leanings
Quote:
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say they believe in God (by eight percentage points), in heaven (by 10 points), in hell (by 15 points), and considerably more likely to believe in the devil (by 17 points). Democrats are more likely than Republicans to say they believe in reincarnation (by 14 percentage points), in astrology (by 14 points), in ghosts (by eight points) and UFOs (by five points).
#30
Old 02-07-2005, 10:09 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polerius
This shows some correlation between belief in astrology and political leanings
But on average, Democrats tend to be less socially authoritarian than Republicans. Democrats are more likely to support abortion rights, gay rights, and oppose the idea of school prayer. Based on what you posted, looks like the Political Compass is scoring belief in astrology ass-backwards.
#31
Old 02-07-2005, 10:18 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfgdxm
Based on what you posted, looks like the Political Compass is scoring belief in astrology ass-backwards.
It seems so.
#32
Old 02-07-2005, 11:31 PM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 942
(4.25, -6.67) ticks strongly disagree. I suspect that several of the remaining questions will be pretty easy to find a consensus on.

Interesting cite regarding beliefs in astrology. I must admit to not being very surprised, though I could see a case being made either way.

I also wanted to mention, in case it hasn't been noticed, that #52 and #55 have been changed since the start of this series of threads. #52 now reads "You cannot be moral without being religious.", and #55 is "I would not wish to send my child to a school that did not instill religious values."
#33
Old 02-07-2005, 11:56 PM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 12,144
I read the astrology column occasionally for entertainment, but I don't believe in it. The chair I'm sitting in has more gravitational influence on me than the planets. The star charts people follow are wrong. Due to precession (?) the signs, houses and charts have drifted over the past 2000-3000 years. So, my birthday 13 May is not really in Taurus. It "drifted" into some other sign. The alignments of the planets is just a function of going around in circles. Sometimes they will appear to line up, but it means nothing. Sometimes they even appear to reverse direction (retrograde), but it is just an illusion. A big problem with astrology is, the predictions are so vague. They can be interpreted after the fact and made to fit anything that happened. My other biggest problem with astrology is the idea that we are predestined, based on birthdays and signs. I am arrogant enough to think I have some control over my own destiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lissa
For example, few people like to be seated with their backs to a door or large open space.
I'm that way, because I like to see things happening, and feel less confined for some reason.
#34
Old 02-08-2005, 12:28 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
[QUOTE=Lissa]
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger thornhill "Feng shui" and lucky days/dates are bunkum.

[/QUOTE


-5.62, -5.49

Well, feng shui isn't complete bullshit. There actually is some validity to the correlation between how certain pieces of furniture are placed and how comfortable one feels in a room. For example, few people like to be seated with their backs to a door or large open space.

But other than that, yeah, astrology and the like are complete and utter wastes of time.
You should watch the Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" episode on feng shi sometime. They totally destroy it.
#35
Old 02-08-2005, 05:44 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cardiff, EU
Posts: 6,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra
IIRC, one of the classic authoritarian personality traits is a lack of skepticism/introversion. That may explain the presence of this question.
I think you're right, uf (although I think you mean "introspection" not "introversion". Authoritarianism requires the people to accept things unquestioningly, despite their possible dubiousness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRD
Neither right nor left have a monopoly on appeal to emotion and irrational fears, nor on surrendering independent thought to "leaders who know better".
Agreed, which is why (economic) left or right is unchanged regardless of how you answer this proposition. Only the vertical axis changes, and perhaps this does have a lot to do with (social) authoritarianism vs. libertarianism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx
Democrats are more likely to support abortion rights, gay rights, and oppose the idea of school prayer. Based on what you posted, looks like the Political Compass is scoring belief in astrology ass-backwards.
But note that US Democrats could be authoritarians compared to other parties in other Western democracies: correlating the Compass results solely with respect to two particular parties in one single country might be a little misleading in that respect.
#36
Old 02-08-2005, 09:20 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: East Lansing, MI
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by SentientMeat
But note that US Democrats could be authoritarians compared to other parties in other Western democracies: correlating the Compass results solely with respect to two particular parties in one single country might be a little misleading in that respect.
Fair point. However, can anyone here in Europe comment about whether people there who believe in astrology tend to belong to the more authoritarian parties? And in particular on both the left and right wing extremes?

I think Apos might have guessed right what the Political Compass folks were thinking is "Dividing people up into different supopsed characters by the dates and times of their birth is no more sensible than doing so by the color of their skin, and no more laudable." Think here of the more simplistic way of looking at astrology, such as someone who'd say "I'd never have a girlfriend who is a Libra." Those who believe in astrology in that sense would be authoritarian in that they were letting other people (astrologers) tell them what other people are like based on the time of their birth, rather than make up their own minds.

However, I agree with you that "I feel that this is the one (and only one, in my opinion) proposition where they have genuinely fucked up."
#37
Old 02-08-2005, 09:39 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfgdxm
Fair point. However, can anyone here in Europe comment about whether people there who believe in astrology tend to belong to the more authoritarian parties? And in particular on both the left and right wing extremes?
Absolutely not. As I wrote before, it is my clear impression that astrology, numerology, Feng Shui as well as Buddhism, Pagens and other “alternative” religions & magic are much more the norm amongst the liberal wishy-washy feel-good “soft”-left. While perhaps not authoritarian left, they’d most certainly not tend to be on the right wing.
#38
Old 02-08-2005, 10:00 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Absolutely not. As I wrote before, it is my clear impression that astrology, numerology, Feng Shui as well as Buddhism, Pagens and other “alternative” religions & magic are much more the norm amongst the liberal wishy-washy feel-good “soft”-left. While perhaps not authoritarian left, they’d most certainly not tend to be on the right wing.
Nitpick: Buddhism is larger then Judaism and older then Christianity, hardly "alternative" in most all senses of the word.

Also, while I agree that astrology and such are more common amongst liberals, I doubt they're "the norm", as in they're belived by more then 50%.
#39
Old 02-08-2005, 10:04 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 4,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malodorous
Nitpick: Buddhism is larger then Judaism and older then Christianity, hardly "alternative" in most all senses of the word.
Yes I know. I was addressing the west, or Europe - where it is "alternative".
#40
Old 02-08-2005, 10:37 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Yes I know. I was addressing the west, or Europe - where it is "alternative".
Can't speak for Europe but according to this Buddhism is about equal in number of followers to Islam or the Unitarian churches in the U.S., which I doubt most people would consider "alternative". Of course one could say all of these churches are alternative in that they aren't part of mainstream christianity, which is the traditional church of most of the peoples living in the U.S, but if you want to make that your deffinition of "alternative", then I'd say you'd have to include The Church of LDS as an "alternative" church, in which case I question your assertion that more liberals then conservatives belive in alternative religons, as there are several million mormons and they are overwelmingly conservative.
#41
Old 02-09-2005, 02:12 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 14,257
Astrology accurately explains many things. In a sense, yes. Astrology as practiced usually consists of feeding a number of Barnum statements to those whose horoscope is being cast. Barnum statements are statements that tend to be accurate descriptions of people and events, but which most people think are only accurate descriptions of them (ie they pick out aspects of events and people that seem unique but are in fact common).

So astrology, in a sense, as practised, does explain many things.

But I don't guess that's what the questioner meant.
#42
Old 02-09-2005, 12:00 PM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 12,144
Is it the same Barnum who said "There's a sucker born every minute"?
#43
Old 02-09-2005, 12:03 PM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune
Absolutely not. As I wrote before, it is my clear impression that astrology, numerology, Feng Shui as well as Buddhism, Pagens and other “alternative” religions & magic are much more the norm amongst the liberal wishy-washy feel-good “soft”-left. While perhaps not authoritarian left, they’d most certainly not tend to be on the right wing.
I tend to agree, and add that new bullshit is more widely believed by leftists while old bullshit is more widely believed by rightists.
#44
Old 02-17-2005, 01:43 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 4,365
[QUOTE=Lissa]
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger thornhill "Feng shui" and lucky days/dates are bunkum.

[/QUOTE


-5.62, -5.49

Well, feng shui isn't complete bullshit. There actually is some validity to the correlation between how certain pieces of furniture are placed and how comfortable one feels in a room. For example, few people like to be seated with their backs to a door or large open space.
But isn't that something that is more in the domain of an interior designer, or just of a person with some style, or common sense?

My favourite word on feng shui comes from David Tang, the socialite and owner of the Shanghai Tang chain of shops. He was being interviewed on the BBC about the subject and described in some length how when he got married he had all the furniture in his bedroom arranged by a feng shui expert. "Did it work?" asked the Beeb. "No, we were divorced the following year," replied Tang in his plummy, not to say, rather effete, Oxbridge accent.

It is an enormous business in Hong Kong, where even the most rational people are in thrall to it.
#45
Old 02-17-2005, 05:04 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 14,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1
Is it the same Barnum who said "There's a sucker born every minute"?
That'd be the one.
#46
Old 02-17-2005, 08:08 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Greater La La County
Posts: 4,218
I took the PC test a while back, but i don't remember my score. Both axes were in the mid-negative range, IIRC.

I disagree with Prop 51, for similar reasons as my fellow posters, but I had some thoughts.

There has been an increased push in the last decade to legitimize astrology, beginning with the release of The Secret Language of Birthdays in 1994. This book claims to have examined what evidence there is of the personalities of notable people for whom we also have birthdates, and extracted the commonalities as an "objective" examination of the truth of astrology. Each two-page spread (one for each date of the year) spells out the personality traits typical of people born on that day. Very interesting on the surface, and a quick perusal of the book (as I made in my Aunt's copy) shows that it does indeed move a baby step beyond the Forer effect: Look at your birthday and those close by, and you find yourself nodding a lot. Look at different parts of the year, not so much. The book was a great success, and I've seen a number of clones at my local Borders recently. It is great fun.

But it is not great science. Throughout, it assumes its conclusion, casting doubt on the objectivity of its examinations. When dealing with the problem of the Calendar change that took place in America (in, what was it, the 1800s?) they state their decision to stick with the recorded birthdate, rather than recalculate to account for the actual position of the Earth at the time. This, of course, proves exactly the opposite of what they intended. If the detailed descriptions of the personalities are indeed accurate and based on some objective measure (they obviously could not be), then by not calculating calendar correction, they have proved that their observations can not possibly be due to any effects of astrology. Oh, well.

At first glance, I would have thought a question like this would be included in the PC test to see how "open-minded" a person is (a sadly large number of my fellow leftees lead with their heart and not their head in my experience), and the (seemingly, to me) left-leaning Political Compass folks would send your assessment in a leftward direction. But apparently not, if the results reported by other Dopers are true. They seem to place far too much stock in the Reagan's belief in astrology as an indicator of conservativism.

I agree, SM, they DID fuck up.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:48 AM.

Copyright © 2017
Best Topics: floyd rose lock french concertina music without teeth quinten dean equilateral triangle grid hiding surveillance cameras mensa lsat who killed lester coin jar calculator build civilization games rough rider costume smaug's dick gloryhole spots radio name hood protector bald girls sex boobs in airplane ffxii vanish children chopsticks wop derogatory starcraft steam sadiddy definition u2 message boards tolo dances kandle heater where is ae densest materials mon petite amie torrent replacement sybil abused silver tarnishes alcohol sterilization jeep crew cab lg vx11000 c notice irs navy sailor hat hydrocortisone valerate otc twelve and a half percent quilted northern vs charmin how many yards is an olympic size pool how loud is a suppressed 9mm closet door ball catch repair 1999 ford ranger squeaking front end do you need lube to masturbate one pence equals how many dollars can cats be mentally retarded do you need to peel zucchini dirk pearson and sandy shaw dfw airport cell phone lot does fedex move packages on weekends does shrimp have veins can you return alcohol to costco charcoal suit with black shirt dancing on a grave why are motorcycles so loud a usb device has malfunctioned and exceeded the power pool of blood on floor how to remove watch back without notches virginia beach no cursing sign how does general delivery work how much does it cost to replace a tail light does hastings buy used books how long does soup last in the refrigerator troubleshoot 3 way switch parallel plug air conditioner difference between social studies and history test driving a car without plates just getting your game ready does paprika have a taste when is the right time to get a promise ring baster robertson feel the night