Thread Tools
Old 04-25-2005, 02:25 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falls Church, Va.
Posts: 1,227
Milk in a bag- WHY?

Just got back from Toronto, my first time in Canada. Sure, the weather sucked, but I got to see the grocery stores with milk in bags!

Found this recent post on the subject of bagged milk that still doesn't explain why people buy it. Does it have to do with some kind of all-natural straight-from-cow stuff? I assumed it would cost less, kinda like buying cereal in a bag instead of a box, but it costs more!

All the bags are 99% in French, too. What's with this exclusivity, French Canada?
Old 04-25-2005, 02:26 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falls Church, Va.
Posts: 1,227
ps I deserve credit for not visiting the space needle thing. Road less traveled!
Old 04-25-2005, 02:32 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8,379
We have bagged milk, 1 litre packets, and it's cheaper and easier to carry home. Only sold through one outlet that I know of, tho'. I don't go out of my way to get it -- but if I'm in th' vicinity, it's savings time!

Coffee baristas here always use bagged milk. It's easy to pour when using a plastic jug.
Old 04-25-2005, 02:37 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone!
Posts: 26,872
I think it's also more environmentally friendly, in terms of the weight of the waste produced - the empty bags are a lot lighter than empty cartons, take less energy to produce, and take up less space at the land fill. At least, that's the explanation I got when I used to live in Ontario.

As for the language, are you sure you were looking at both sides of the package? Packaging is usually in English and French. It's up to the package designer how to do that - sometimes one side is English and the other French, sometimes both languages are used on both sides.
Old 04-25-2005, 03:08 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,538
From the POV of the supplier, bags are an ideal packaging solution; in the empty state, they take up very little space in storage and when transported - unlike, say, plastic bottles - which must either be manufactured at the bottling plant or transported full of air.

Also, in the empty state, the contents of the bag (i.e. nothing) are easy to keep sterile.
Old 04-25-2005, 07:29 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 7,989
There was a brief stint in GA schools (Dekalb County) where school lunches had single serve milk-bags for students. I was one then, and well, lets count what was wrong with them:

1.Its in a bag, if it gets punctured...
2.Its in a bag.... "Free" water balloon.
3.The milk from other bags rested on "newer" bags. Smelled delightful.
4.Its in a bag, students where given a straw.. Blow it up, and pop it!
5.If you stretch the plastic with your finger, and then blow it up... you could make brests. (I did mention we where in elementary school then... right?)


I think the only thing it had going was that it was recycleable. But then so are the cartons.

I think the reason why we havent seen it US-side is because of Legacy. Milk is "supposed" to come in a carton. Distances are "supposed" to not be divisble by 10.
Old 04-25-2005, 08:47 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 10,559
In the food service industry in the 'States, bagged milk is common.
Old 04-25-2005, 08:53 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: T. O.
Posts: 464
On environmental friendliness: the container (pitcher) that you use for bagged milk is reusable, whereas a carton or plastic jug is not. Kind of like a water bottle vs. a juice box.

(Now don't get too riled up about our peculiar food packaging (plenty of us learned rudimentary French from cereal boxes), or we'll start in on your monochrome money. That is so last century. )
Old 04-25-2005, 08:54 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 12,290
Milk in a bag is nothing. I went to a baseball game in Managua, Nicaragua where the fans were drinking Pepsi, Castro-Cola or whatever out of baggies. It was cheaper than paper cups I suppose.

Held them in your hands and kept the hole closed with your thumbs, to drink, you raised it in the air like evoking the Blessed Mother Mary and drank. Odd, but nice and cool in your hands.
Old 04-25-2005, 09:18 AM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: was Montreal, now MD
Posts: 7,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeko
There was a brief stint in GA schools (Dekalb County) where school lunches had single serve milk-bags for students.
I've never seen single servings of milk in little baggies. Milk comes in cartons for 250ml, 500ml, 1L, and 2L. Only the 4L format is sold as bags. Sure, they can be punctured, but it's pretty rare. I can see how giving miniature versions to kids could get messy, though, if they've got too much energy and imagination.

I like the bags because they take up less room in my recycling bin. Snip them open, wash them out, and you can stack a whole bunch of them in much less space than a big jug would take.
Old 04-25-2005, 09:33 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,810
In the school district where I work (So Cal) we use bagged milk in the elementary grades. The main reason is the volume of trash is much lower so the schools need fewer pick-ups of trash, so they pay less to have it picked up.

In response to Meeko, the water balloon issue lasted about 1/2 of one day when we first introduced the milk; kids have short attention spans. I have never seen a bag break except while inside the larger bag which holds 90 small bags (1/2 pt.) so it affected only the cafeteria worker. (By the way, too bad DeKalb Co. GA doesn't offer classes in spelling or grammar.)
Quote:
The milk from other bags rested on "newer" bags. Smelled delightful.
I don't know what that means.
We are happy with the bags.
Old 04-25-2005, 10:50 AM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Greenbury, Michigan
Posts: 3,861
Well, I don't see it any different than Capri Sun fruit juice pouches. However, I admit I am unfamiliar with this type of product.

Are the plastic bags transparent?
Old 04-25-2005, 11:06 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper
I think it's also more environmentally friendly, in terms of the weight of the waste produced - the empty bags are a lot lighter than empty cartons, take less energy to produce, and take up less space at the land fill. At least, that's the explanation I got when I used to live in Ontario.
.
Slight hijack - if this explanation is "true", then why not legislate that all printers sold henceforth must be "two-sided" printers. Our company uses the primitive behemoths that only print on one side - and they print these multi-hundred page documents constantly. Multiply this by 1000000 other companies. Talk about killing trees!

Seems like we could save a helluva lot more landfill space if we outlawed single sided printers rather than force people to buy milk in bags.

Sheesh!
Old 04-25-2005, 12:52 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bangkok/52/Male
Posts: 8,870
Milk bag organizer for your fridge
Old 04-25-2005, 12:58 PM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 9,193
It was tried briefly in Australia in the late 70s. This was when we still had milk delivered. I remember the first day of the new system, the milkman gave us a little blue plastic jug. You'd drop the milk sachet in, snip one of the corners, and pour. It wasn't popular and it didn't last long before we went back to cartons / bottles.

In Thailand, you can buy iced coffee from street vendors. They mix it all up in a big cup, and then pour the coffee into a plastic bag with handles (like a smaller supermarket bag), poke a straw through the top, and hand it to you just like that.
__________________
Chat to the Australian and New Zealand Dopers at G'Dope ('merkins and sundry furriners more than welcome). "Check them out" - Cecil Adams
Old 04-25-2005, 01:01 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 57,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozmik
Are the plastic bags transparent?
Usually. Sometimes they're tinted blue. The typical serving size (and actually the only size I've ever seen for personal use, as opposed to the larger plastic bags meant for cafeteria dispensers) is four litres divided into three 1.33L bags. The reusable 'jug' is plastic, dishwasher-safe and these days available in dollar stores.
Old 04-25-2005, 01:03 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bangkok/52/Male
Posts: 8,870
Quote:
Seems like we could save a helluva lot more landfill space if we outlawed single sided printers rather than force people to buy milk in bags.
Who's being forced? Did bagged milk happen via legislative act? I remember about ten years ago when it was cardboard cartons, then it changed to plastic jugs. People adapted.

Right now I have a gallon milk jug in the fridge that is only ¼ full. It would be great if this was bagged so that there wouldn't be a big air-filled container taking up prime top shelf refrigerator real estate. I'd also appreciate not having to jump up and down on the empty milk jugs to flatten them out before I toss them into the recycling bin.
Old 04-25-2005, 01:12 PM
Guest
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: #7
Posts: 1,030
The blue could be there to protect vitamins, in the US there are opaque yellow jugs for the exact reason. We also had the 'milk pouch' in high school. There were obligatory references to breast implants and an occasional stab through if you got overzealous. A really nice trick was milk warfare. Stab bag with straw, point straw at victim, squeeze bag. Detentions ended all of that by the second or third week. Another benifit from the food science POV is that cartons have head space, headspace has oxygen, oxygen oxidizes milk, oxidized milk tastes rancid. Bags could be filled without headspace so the milk tastes fresher longer.
Old 04-25-2005, 01:22 PM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Ass end of Alberta
Posts: 17,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by BwanaBob
Slight hijack - if this explanation is "true", then why not legislate that all printers sold henceforth must be "two-sided" printers.
Huh? Milk-in-bags isn't legislated, it's a choice made by manufacturers and consumers. You can still get milk in cartons or jugs if you want, but you get more milk for your money if you buy it in bags -- and it's less of a hassle to dispose of the garbage. Why buy a new hard plastic container every time you get milk? You buy one that's designed to accomodate the bag, snip a corner off the top of each bag to open it, and you're good to go.

You hardly see them in B.C. any more, which is a drag. (And we're supposed to be the tree-hugger province.)

We grew up with bagged milk in my family, because my dad was in the CAF, and you could buy it on the base. It seemed like a step forward when that efficient, cost-effective, and environmentally sound option became available for consumers. Too bad our market didn't go along.
Old 04-25-2005, 01:39 PM
Isaiah 1:15 Screw the NRA.
Charter Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 49,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewdt85
ps I deserve credit for not visiting the space needle thing. Road less traveled!
Just a nitpick: The Space Needle is in Seattle. The big pointy thingy in Toronto is the CCN Tower.
Old 04-25-2005, 02:58 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 57,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus
Just a nitpick: The Space Needle is in Seattle. The big pointy thingy in Toronto is the CCN Tower.
I know it's tall, three times as tall as Seattle's "there, there, it's all right, we can try again in a little whilte" tower, but as far as I know there's only one "C" in its name.
Old 04-25-2005, 03:12 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southeast MN
Posts: 5,909
When I worked in a restaurant, we got milk in 5 gallon bags (that came in a plastic box). When the mil was empty, you'd take out the box, put in the new one, and cut the plastic spigot. (the milk cooler had a weighted lever that squeezed the spigot tube shut). I called the whole process "changing the cow"

I used to get 1/2 gallon bags because they were cheaper. (I also got a pitcher that had a notch for resealing the bag). But at my current grocery store I don't think they have bags.

Brian
Old 04-25-2005, 03:16 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,653
We used to get milk in bags all the time when I lived in Montreal in the 70s. It was cheaper that way. As has been said, we had a reusable plastic pitcher into which we'd plop the bag, snip off the corner, and be ready to go.

Ed
Old 04-25-2005, 03:38 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 2,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewdt85
All the bags are 99% in French, too. What's with this exclusivity, French Canada?
Packaging by law (and with some minor exceptions) must be in both official languages.

url]http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-38/C.R.C.-c.417/74651.html[/url]

Quote:
All information required by the Act and these Regulations to be shown on the label of a prepackaged product shall be shown in both official languages except that the identity and principal place of business of the person by or for whom the prepackaged product was manufactured, processed, produced or packaged for resale may be shown in one of the official languages.
And FWIW I grew up in a bagged-milk-and-pitcher household.
Old 04-25-2005, 03:57 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Cocytus
Posts: 275
Hmm, I think I see a market for milk bags with their own nozzle. It could be the biggest thing since boxed wine.



patent pending....
Old 04-25-2005, 08:20 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,098
If I remember correctly, milk in bags has the advantage of not needing refrigeration. The milk is pumped into the bag, all air is removed and then the milk is pastuerized. (sp)
Shipping is cheaper since you don't have to keep it cool. I remember reading that in European countries milk is on the shelves with the granola and breakfast bars.

Tastes better cold, so people tend to chill it before serving.
Old 04-25-2005, 08:31 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 25,884
I went to college in upstate New York in the late 80s and for a while, the supermarkets sold bagged milk, I think in one-liter bags. But rather than costing less than milk in bottles or cartons, it cost more. I think they stopped selling in bags after a while.
Old 04-25-2005, 08:46 PM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: was Montreal, now MD
Posts: 7,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbroome
If I remember correctly, milk in bags has the advantage of not needing refrigeration. The milk is pumped into the bag, all air is removed and then the milk is pastuerized. (sp)
Shipping is cheaper since you don't have to keep it cool. I remember reading that in European countries milk is on the shelves with the granola and breakfast bars.

Tastes better cold, so people tend to chill it before serving.
We still have to keep ours refrigerated. I've seen milk in boxes, with a shelf life of a couple of months if unopened, but the milk bags stay in the fridge.
Old 04-25-2005, 08:48 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern ontario
Posts: 6,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbroome
If I remember correctly, milk in bags has the advantage of not needing refrigeration. The milk is pumped into the bag, all air is removed and then the milk is pastuerized. (sp)
Shipping is cheaper since you don't have to keep it cool. I remember reading that in European countries milk is on the shelves with the granola and breakfast bars.

Tastes better cold, so people tend to chill it before serving.
Well, I have to say that I have seen milk spoil in unopened plastic bags from not being refrigerated. Looks and smells absolutely disgusting.

Then again, the milk bags that I've seen have always had little air bubbles still inside them (so that you can 'snip' a corner of the bag open without spilling.) Maybe that's the reason they go bad. (shrugs.)
Old 04-25-2005, 10:18 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falls Church, Va.
Posts: 1,227
To sum up the responses so far:
  • Easier to carry home?
  • Easy to pour when using plastic jug technique?
  • Waste efficient in size, production, weight of container, and absence of one-use carton
  • Takes up little space in storage when transported
  • On rare occasions is cheaper
  • On rare occasions is pasteurized so as not to need refrigeration when shipped and stocked
    -and-
  • businesses and schools and such use them for serving machines or rarely for lunch rooms

These answers are great, yet still don't quite answer my query- the first answer doesn't fit 99% of cases who buy the milk I'm sure; the second answer doesn't set well- cutting the bag and pouring it into a pitcher first and then pouring isn't the hardest thing to do, but buying a carton, opening and pouring is still easier; the third and fourth make absolute sense for the manufacturer but not for the consumer who pays considerably more, unless that consumer is a serious environmentalist (and as popular as this stuff is in Canada, that place must be full of 'em!); and the next two are not true most of the time.
The last answer makes sense, but when schools and businesses use those bags of milk with the nozzles in their milk machines (like in a college mess hall) or bags served in a lunch room, they have them shipped in, right? Not from the grocery store aisle.

Is it possible that I've asked a question that can only be answered by- CECIL HIMSELF?!!
(thunder cracks)
Old 04-25-2005, 10:41 PM
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: was Montreal, now MD
Posts: 7,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewdt85
the second answer doesn't set well- cutting the bag and pouring it into a pitcher first and then pouring isn't the hardest thing to do, but buying a carton, opening and pouring is still easier
No, no, you don't pour it out of the bag and into a pitcher. The bag sits in the pitcher and you pour the milk out of the hole in the bag each time you use it.

I'm trying to find a pic online but I'm having no luck.
Old 04-26-2005, 12:03 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Near the GT eeehhhh...
Posts: 27,575
I grew up in a bagged-milk household as well. Now I live alone, and buy it in litre cartons (although I recently discovered that the Big Carrot store on the Danforth in Toronto sells organic milk in one-litre returnable glass bottles. There's a deposit on the bottle, and the milk tastes better too!
__________________
Rigardu, kaj vi ekvidos.
Look, and you will begin to see.
Old 04-26-2005, 12:06 AM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 2,894
Here's a milk bag website.

This is the bag you buy, in which are three clear bags of milk of 1 1/3 litres each.

This is how you put the bag of milk into the pitcher.

These are scissors. You use them to cut the tip of the bag of milk.

This is called pouring.
Old 04-26-2005, 12:39 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falls Church, Va.
Posts: 1,227
That site answered my question, I think- this picture shows the price of a bag of milk to be between 4 or 5 canadian dollars, which means that a buyer is getting about 2.4 gallons of milk for $4.50 by buying bagged milk! I guess I was erroneously remembering the price posted there- as I recall, we were confused b/c there was a mistake in the posting of the price. So, the answer is that even though bagged milk has it's many disadvantages, it is economical (which is why consumers buy it), economical for the manufacturers to make, store, and ship, and environmentally-friendly.
Old 04-26-2005, 09:11 AM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 2,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewdt85
So, the answer is that even though bagged milk has it's [sic] many disadvantages, it is economical (which is why consumers buy it), economical for the manufacturers to make, store, and ship, and environmentally-friendly.
Think of it this way: you've got three kids who drink a lot of milk. You buy it in bags - essentially in bulk - to save money. Also, it could be argued that bags take up less space in a refrigerator than cartons, since they're soft and can fit into cramped spaces more easily.

Since there's just two of us in this household and we don't drink much milk, we buy 2 litre cartons of 3.25% milk and 500 mL cartons of 10% coffee cream.

Another little tidbit about Canadian milk: what you refer to as "whole" (3.25%) milk is called "homo" in many parts of the country.

Quote:
homo milk Homogenized milk. Known in the States as whole milk. Nobody here thinks twice about what images milk cartons with the word "HOMO" in big letters on the side conjure up in the minds of Americans. [...] Homo milk is homogenized milk with a butterfat content of 3.25%.
From here. Also stuff like Kraft Macaroni & Cheese being packaged as Kraft Dinner (and referred to as KD) in Canada.
Old 04-26-2005, 11:02 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,533
They sell milk (and orange juice) in bags in Wisconsin. My father-in-law buys it because it is cheaper. I'm sure, knowing him, that he would not buy milk in bags if it were not cheaper. He even got a special little snipper (magnetic, so it sticks to the fridge) to clip the corners off the bags...must have been a giveaway at whatever store he buys the milk bags from.

You do still need to refrigerate it, though. It's milk in boxes (like they sell in Europe) that you can keep on the shelf until opened. I've only seen soy milk sold that way in the US.
Old 04-26-2005, 11:14 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 10,559
I don't get the whole "homo milk as a Canadian problem" problem -- I grew up with "homo" milk in Port Huron, Michigan. It's short for "homogenized." It's always on those hand-painted posters that stores put up. "Homo Milk, $2.99/gal."
Old 04-26-2005, 11:18 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 10,559
Oh, meant to add that it's UHT (ultra-high temp) Pasteurized milk that's shelf-stable. Kind of a funky flavor, but not bad when you get used to it. Gotta refrigerate after opening. All over the place when I was in Germany in the 90's, and all over the place here in Mexico. I've seen it a little in that 'States, but it's there. I always think of the brand Parlamat being associated with it.
Old 04-26-2005, 12:01 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bogotį, Colombia
Posts: 1,420
Here in Colombia, most dairies sell milk in bags. We always buy our milk in bags because it costs less and it is easy to handle. We have a plastic container that the bag fits in. We just cut off a corner of the bag an it is easy to pour.
__________________
A committee is a thing which takes a week to do what one good man can do in an hour. ~Elbert Hubbard
Old 04-26-2005, 12:08 PM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 24,534
Isn't all the milk we drink these days homogenized? It's not like 2% and skim aren't "homo milk", right?
Old 04-26-2005, 12:30 PM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Duchy of Grand Fenwick
Posts: 2,139
My only experience with bagged milk is in Canada.

My grandparents lived in PEI, and we would visit them in the summer. They lived at least an hour from the nearest decently sized grocery store, although there were smaller groceries closer to them. This wasn't unusual at that time, or indeed today; a lot of the Island is still rural.

Whenever my grandparents would go in to town, they would buy a lot of bags of milk (especially if the grandchildren were coming to visit ) among other things. These would all go into the ubiquitous deep freeze, to come out when needed. The bags packed very well among all the other items in the freezer.

And, they were cool to we American kids, just like the cereal boxes being printed half in French.

best to all,

plynck
__________________
"Beuvez touours, vous ne mourrez jamais." Rabelais
Old 04-26-2005, 01:21 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan, USA
Posts: 10,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsofia
Isn't all the milk we drink these days homogenized? It's not like 2% and skim aren't "homo milk", right?
That's correct. Originally, though, there was no reduced fat milk. Homogenized meant it was processed to not separate, like raw milk will tend to do ("raw in sense not processed"). All of the dissimilar fats have been removed to be sold as other types of milk products (cream, and so on). So what remains is homogenous. Low-fat milk didn't necessarily come about because of health concerns, but rather the milkfat was removed to make more products neededing milkfat.

So the progression makes sense: homogenous milk, homo milk, 2% and skim (and there's 0.5% in there). What's always homo milk will always be known as homo milk, even if the others strictly speaking are homogenized.

I think the Canadians use whole milk to describe what I'm calling raw milk.

As for homo, I'll reiterate that I never knew this as a Canadian thing; I grew up with it in Michigan.
Old 04-26-2005, 08:11 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigen
We still have to keep ours refrigerated. I've seen milk in boxes, with a shelf life of a couple of months if unopened, but the milk bags stay in the fridge.

THAT is what I was remembering! Boxed milk was on the shelf, bags-I don't believe I heard about the storage conditions for them. Had the bags confused with the boxes.

Thanks for correcting the error.
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 AM.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: [email protected]

Send comments about this website to:

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

Copyright © 2017
Best Topics: dwarf accent hulu browse goat say ten gallon hats remove mole cost rosemary's baby eyes paste for kids snow blowing sex allergic to antiperspirant simmer stove setting halflings leaf microwave with inverter technology how to remove a splinter under a fingernail dope usernames for tumblr don't bring sand to the beach law & order bodies does stainless steel change color not at this address stamp do antibiotics make you pee huge cockroach in my bathroom unlimited miles car rentals enterprise post it glue stick staples