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Old 04-30-2006, 09:04 AM
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Was LbJ a nut?

A book I was reading claimed that Lyndon Johnson had an erratic personality and that he had to be kept under close wraps by his protectors. One of the things he liked to do was show other dignitaries his penis. Is this true? Has anyone read any LBJ biographies that confirm any of this strange behaviour? If it is true, how did he get to be president?
Old 04-30-2006, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solkoe
A book I was reading claimed that Lyndon Johnson had an erratic personality and that he had to be kept under close wraps by his protectors. One of the things he liked to do was show other dignitaries his penis. Is this true? Has anyone read any LBJ biographies that confirm any of this strange behaviour? If it is true, how did he get to be president?

I donb't know about other dignitaries, but LBJ used to enjoy dealing with subordinates while he was sitting on the toilet with the bathroom door open, probably for the purposes of establishing how busy he was and how he felt comfortable treating them like his personal body servants. I don't know if this was erratic as much as just (figuratively) rubbing people's noses in his shit to show off how powerful he was.
Old 04-30-2006, 10:02 AM
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Here

Quote:
From time to time, Johnson's antagonism
toward these men of culture assumed the
crude shape of simple exhibitionism. His
penchants for talking to visitors while
on the toilet, for using crude and
scatological language, and for
exhibiting his sexual organs were
especially pronounced when he dealt with
'gentlemen of culture.' In renouncing
his civility he stripped them of theirs;
he reduced them to his own ignominy, in
which he celebrated a triumph over his
mother's voice within him.
Old 04-30-2006, 12:57 PM
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In other words,

He was good 'ole boy from Texas.
Old 04-30-2006, 01:13 PM
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A shout out here for Robert Caro 's monumental biography of LBJ - three huge volumes thus far: The Path to Power, Means of Ascent and Master of the Senate, taking the story up to 1960.

All the man is present in them, a man capable of the crudest vulgarities, ruthless and monomaniacal in his ambition, yet probably the most astute political operator of the 20th century and, without doubt, a great American President (far greater, in my opinion, than JFK).
Old 04-30-2006, 01:23 PM
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I'd say that LBJ's handling of Vietnam qualifies him as being close to mentally ill. On the one hand, the guy was sending more and more troops into this disaster, all the while realizing that the whole mess was unwinnable. He had a giant model of khe San in the White House basement-and seemed obsessed with the minutae of this recreation of Dien Bien Phu-supposedly htis place (Khe Sanh) was the "linchpin of our strategy"-then a few months later, it was inconsequential. He was a mean, vindictive, and amoral man. Yet, his conscience got to him in the end-I guess reading all those obituaries finally made him realize something. From what i understand, Johnson retired to his ranch and drank himself to death.
Old 04-30-2006, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c
I'd say that LBJ's handling of Vietnam qualifies him as being close to mentally ill. On the one hand, the guy was sending more and more troops into this disaster, all the while realizing that the whole mess was unwinnable. He had a giant model of khe San in the White House basement-and seemed obsessed with the minutae of this recreation of Dien Bien Phu-supposedly htis place (Khe Sanh) was the "linchpin of our strategy"-then a few months later, it was inconsequential. He was a mean, vindictive, and amoral man. Yet, his conscience got to him in the end-I guess reading all those obituaries finally made him realize something. From what i understand, Johnson retired to his ranch and drank himself to death.
ralph124c. I'm not even giving you the benefit of the doubt.

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This is General Questions. No one cares what your opinion is. No one cares how you characterize LBJ vis-a-vis the War.

Do this again in my forum and you'll be on double secret probation*

*While that's a joke, my THREAT is NOT.

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Old 04-30-2006, 03:09 PM
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From what I gathered from scannning several books on LBJ, it was he who fulfilled many of the promises put forth by JFK. Desegregation(the desegregation of hospitals, etc) and the War on Poverty began with him.
Old 04-30-2006, 03:56 PM
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During the 60's I had a gig at the LBJ ranch (I was a musician) and he very politely came over to us and thanked us for being there, etc. He certanly didn't have to do this.
My first impression? He was BIG. His appearance in person was overpowering.
But polite and considerate to us lowly musicans!
Never forget it.
Old 04-30-2006, 04:13 PM
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LBJ was the only president that I met in person. He was on his way to a campaign rally in 1964 when his motorcade stopped in the middle of the street in front of me. The top of the limo opened and he popped out. Boy, was he a big guy! He also had a very ruddy complexion, and when he spoke, it sure seemed to me like he had been drinking. Or maybe that's the way a Texas drawl sounded to a young kid. I don't think he was a nut at all, just a very earthy individual. He was at least rational enough to not run again in 1968.
Old 04-30-2006, 04:13 PM
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Well, the main proponent of the "LBJ Was Insane" theory was Richard Goodwin, a longtime advisor and speechwriter of the Kennedy family, and one of the Kennedy insiders that LBJ kept in his administration. He made his famous assertion in the book "Remembering America."

Goodwin is, to put it mildly, neither an honest nor a credible observer. Nonetheless, his anecdotes (combined with those of people much more sympathetic to Johnson) indicate that LBJ was a guy with all kinds of odd quirks and mood swings. LBJ's friend Jack Valenti responded to Goodwin's book by saying, "If I didn't know Lyndon, and you read me a list of some of the things he did, I WOULD say he was nuts. But I did know him, and he was the sanest man I ever knew."

Johnson was a master manipulator, and he could play many roles depending on what the scenario called for. As Majority Leader in the Senate, if he needed your vote, he'd find a way to get it- whether by charming you, flattering you, bribing you, threatening you or intimidating you. He could do any and all of those things. But my sense is, LBJ was a lot like Andy Kaufmann: he did all kinds of outrageous, seemingly crazy things, but almost everything he did was calculated.

Two interesting ironies about the Goodwin bnook:

1) Conveniently, as far as Goodwin was concerned, LBJ was only insane when it came to Viet Nam. When LBJ was proposing to spending billions in fighting poverty, or putting liberal Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court, or advancing civil rights legislation, Johnson was as sound as a dollar!

2) To "prove" LBJ's insanity, Goodwin kept pointing to his alleged paranoia about Robert Kennedy. LBJ would roar constantly that "That damn Bobby Kennedy has spies all around me! He knows everything I'm saying and doing! I'm surrounded by backstabbing Kennedy loyalists."

A page or so later, Goodwin would say something like, "When I told Boby Kennedy about all of this later, Bobby agreed with me that Lyndon was going mad..."

For Pete's sake, Goodwin isn't proving here that LBJ was paranoid- he's proving that LBJ was 100% correct! He was surrounded by people who were spying on him and reporting his actions to Bobby Kennedy. Dick Goodwin was ONE of those spies!

But somehow, Goodwin never quite grasped that.

*

If you want to know what LBJ was really like, look at the transcripts now available of his taped, private conversations. When LBJ talked to people he trusted, like Senator Richard Russell, he said what he really believed, without any bluster or nonsense.hat you'll see is that LBJ was NOT gung ho on the Viet Nam war. He could see it was a deepening fiasco, but didn't know what to do about it. When he wasn't putting on a show, LBJ was more sad than mad.
Old 04-30-2006, 04:32 PM
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I don't know about showing off his "assets", but LBJ did like to show people his gall bladder scar.
Old 04-30-2006, 06:02 PM
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LBJ had an interesting way of ordering custom-made pants.
Old 04-30-2006, 06:30 PM
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When LBJ signed the civil rights legislation he said something like, "We just delivered the South to the Republican Party for the next 30 years." (He underestimated.)

Alienating a core constituency of your party is politically insane. Doing it because it is right, just and in the long term best interests of the country is quite the opposite of "insane". There are all kinds of question about LBJ's ethics, methods and antics. Underlying it all was some sense of conscience and justice that had a moral compass. He came to realize that the Vietnam war was fiasco. During the same speech when he announced he wasn't going to run for reelection he also announced that he was stopping the bombing of North Vienam and was initiating peace talks. After Nixon won he resumed the bombing and ramped up the war again. Which one was more sane?

LBJ may be one of the most complex characters in American history as Caro has shown. No matter how you care to judge him he has to be given his due for making a priority and forcing the passage of the civil rights legislation. If that was the work of a madman then think what you will.
Old 04-30-2006, 07:18 PM
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I was reading the wiki entry on the TV show "King of the Hill" and apparently, the character of Buck Strickland is loosely patterned after LBJ. Makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
Old 04-30-2006, 08:49 PM
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ralph124c. I want to apologize to you for what must have seemed an abrupt comment on my part.

What I meant was that you have been around the boards for quite a while. You're pretty savvy. And I saw your post as a political comment that had little to do with answering the OP. You probably saw it as being totally responsive to the OP. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Sometimes I just get a little short with people who I think should know better. And that was you today.
Old 05-01-2006, 01:29 AM
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Since the OP seems to seek opinions, could it perhaps be moved to IMHO?
Old 05-01-2006, 01:39 AM
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They say he called his penis "Jumbo"
Old 05-03-2006, 03:46 PM
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Spartydog answered better than I could have.

LBJ had a maddeningly contradictory and erratic personality, with a deep and abiding love of power and a determination to use it as he thought best - but I don't think he was a nut. By 1967-68, though, he certainly seemed to be wrestling with depression as he saw his Presidency unraveled by Vietnam and domestic problems.

The Caro books are, as noted above, excellent. Well worth a read, with some great insights on LBJ and how he came to be that way. The passages on his 1948 Senate race are nothing less than epic.
Old 05-03-2006, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra
In other words,

He was good 'ole boy from Texas.
No, he wasn't. He was a thief, a major league asshole, and he made Texans look bad because everybody thought he was just a good old boy from Texas.

The worst day of his life was when they left the front gate of the LBJ ranch open and all the cows went back home.
Old 05-03-2006, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Clothahump
No, he wasn't. He was a thief, a major league asshole, and he made Texans look bad because everybody thought he was just a good old boy from Texas.

The worst day of his life was when they left the front gate of the LBJ ranch open and all the cows went back home.
Why is it so tough to formulate a reply to the OP instead of derailing this thread? I just don't get.

Clothy. Remember which forum this is.

samclem
Old 05-03-2006, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by astorian
Richard Goodwin, a longtime advisor and speechwriter of the Kennedy family, and one of the Kennedy insiders that LBJ kept in his administration.
And, incidentally, the guy played by Rob Morrow in Quiz Show.
Old 05-03-2006, 10:34 PM
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samclem: Why is it so tough to formulate a reply to the OP instead of derailing this thread? I just don't get.
(I think Clothahump was following the tracks laid down by Zebra's insulting derailment.)

According to the link that astro supplied, respected and popular historian Doris Kearns (Goodwin) makes a fairly sound case for LBJ having abnormal behavior regarding at least his bathroom habits. She spent a lot of time with the Johnsons in Texas and wrote a biography of Johnson.

I seem to remember his flashing a surgery scar to the press and pulling one of his dogs up by the ears. I had the impression that he was unusually impulsive when he had an audience -- which was most of the time.

These things seem absurdly small in comparison to what he did in the war, but I guess after a while we get used to warrior presidents.

I too saw him in person. He was impressive. Big and surprisingly well-manicured in his looks. Very silver. Not as creepy looking as he makes me feel now.
Old 05-03-2006, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe
(I think Clothahump was following the tracks laid down by Zebra's insulting derailment.)
Also, take a look at Clothahump's location. That might help explain things.
Old 05-04-2006, 12:47 AM
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I'm too young to really comment on LBJ specifically, but this question prompted me to pull out my Abnormal Psychology textbook and look up the elements of psychological abnormality. So, without really commenting on how they apply to LBJ, here they are:

Suffering
Maladaptiveness
Irrationality
Unpredictability and/or loss of control
Rareness and unconventionality
Observer discomfort
Violation of well-defined social standards
Old 05-04-2006, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BlakeTyner
I'm too young to really comment on LBJ specifically, but this question prompted me to pull out my Abnormal Psychology textbook and look up the elements of psychological abnormality. So, without really commenting on how they apply to LBJ, here they are:

Suffering
Maladaptiveness
Irrationality
Unpredictability and/or loss of control
Rareness and unconventionality
Observer discomfort
Violation of well-defined social standards
Well I guess we're all fucked now, 'cuz I don't know a soul that this list can't describe from time to time.

C-SPAN Radio plays the LBJ tapes regularly. You can only get it over the air in D.C. (and Baltimore?), but you can also stream it from C-SPAN's homepage. Anyway, I've listened to more than a few hours of these tapes and it seems clear to me that the guy was something of a political genius -- the way he made sure he got what he wanted without ever pissing most people off too much as to burn the briges is quite masterful, and I'd encourage anyone interested in this topic to give a listen. They're a fascinating piece of American history in their own right.

Of course, the other thing about the tapes, at least on the domestic side, is that they show Johnson pulling the whole damn country up by its ears w/r/t segregation, and labor policy, not to mention The Great Society. So not only was he an astounding operator, but his goals were things that I find not only admirable, but astounding given the political climate in which he found himself. Anyway, if I could pick any one president to be in my foxhole, there's a 50% chance I'd ask for LBJ.

--Cliffy
Old 05-04-2006, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by solkoe
... how did he get to be president?
Are you serious?
Old 05-04-2006, 09:51 AM
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I think my favorite LBJ story (other than the one where he told the Air Force guy, "Son, they're all my helicopters) was one told by Jack Valenti, who was on Johnson's White House staff. They sat down for a meal and Valenti began saying grace.

LBJ said, "Speak up, Jack - I can't hear you!"

Valenti calmly replied, "I wasn't talking to you, Mr. President."
Old 05-04-2006, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by samclem
Why is it so tough to formulate a reply to the OP instead of derailing this thread?
Because, although the main content of the OP asks a fairly straightforward question about LBJ's habits, the title of this thread is "Was LBJ a nut?" and some people are probably responding to that.

It's not exactly a question amenable to a factual answer.
Old 09-05-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
I'd say that LBJ's handling of Vietnam qualifies him as being close to mentally ill. On the one hand, the guy was sending more and more troops into this disaster, all the while realizing that the whole mess was unwinnable. He had a giant model of khe San in the White House basement-and seemed obsessed with the minutae of this recreation of Dien Bien Phu-supposedly htis place (Khe Sanh) was the "linchpin of our strategy"-then a few months later, it was inconsequential. He was a mean, vindictive, and amoral man. Yet, his conscience got to him in the end-I guess reading all those obituaries finally made him realize something. From what i understand, Johnson retired to his ranch and drank himself to death.
Thnx for the info because I really needed it for a short answer on Lyndon Johnson
Old 09-05-2012, 09:01 PM
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Note: 6-year-old thread.
Old 09-05-2012, 09:26 PM
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Thnx for the info because I really needed it for a short answer on Lyndon Johnson
I can't wait to see the grade on your homework.
Old 09-06-2012, 01:19 AM
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Who was the person who told the tale of LBJ whipping it out in a Cabinet meeting and saying "Let's see if Ho Chi Minh has anything this big!"
I was thinking it may have been somebody with a powerful name, like Dean Acheson, or someone similar who told it, but, it may have been Godwin.
Old 09-06-2012, 02:01 AM
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Thnx for the info because I really needed it for a short answer on Lyndon Johnson
So, your source will be "I read something some guy posted on an Internet message board six years ago"?
Old 09-06-2012, 08:34 AM
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These anecdotes about LBJ make me think of Zap Branigan from Futurama.
Old 09-06-2012, 08:54 AM
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These anecdotes about LBJ make me think of Zap Branigan from Futurama.
Nixon: "For God's sake, Brannigan, cover yourself! I didn't live a thousand years and travel a quadrillion miles to stare at another man's gizmo."
Old 09-06-2012, 11:50 AM
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"Inform the Cabinet that I have made it with a woman."
Old 09-06-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber View Post
I donb't know about other dignitaries, but LBJ used to enjoy dealing with subordinates while he was sitting on the toilet with the bathroom door open, probably for the purposes of establishing how busy he was and how he felt comfortable treating them like his personal body servants. I don't know if this was erratic as much as just (figuratively) rubbing people's noses in his shit to show off how powerful he was.
Richard Goodwin's wife, Doris Kearns Goodwin, also worked with LBJ in the White House and also wrote a book about it. I haven't read it so I don't know what her take is on his "insanity", but I've seen her on TV describe him as a fascinating man. She also mentioned taking dictation for him in the bathroom while he was taking a dump, so I don't think it was a power thing for him, at least not with her.

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Note: 6-year-old thread.
Aw damn.
Old 09-06-2012, 01:35 PM
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And it only took 11 post until it was Goodwinized.
Old 09-06-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
I'd say that LBJ's handling of Vietnam qualifies him as being close to mentally ill. On the one hand, the guy was sending more and more troops into this disaster, all the while realizing that the whole mess was unwinnable. He had a giant model of khe San in the White House basement-and seemed obsessed with the minutae of this recreation of Dien Bien Phu-supposedly htis place (Khe Sanh) was the "linchpin of our strategy"-then a few months later, it was inconsequential. He was a mean, vindictive, and amoral man. Yet, his conscience got to him in the end-I guess reading all those obituaries finally made him realize something. From what i understand, Johnson retired to his ranch and drank himself to death.
I don't think he's as bad as you think he is - he did try to do the right thing, such as with desegregation. He certainly doesn't strike me as being a Texas good ole boy as suggested up thread.

I think he's one of the most interesting of modern presidents. It's a pity he didn't do what needed to be done about withdrawing from Vietnam.
Old 09-07-2012, 03:35 AM
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IFrom what i understand, Johnson retired to his ranch and drank himself to death.
What nonsense! your understanding is really off.

LBJ lived 5 years after his term as President, and died from a heart attack, one of several he had, starting about 20 years earlier. His poor heart condition was well known, and he had consulted with heart surgeon Dr. DeBakey of Texas (who said he was too ill to risk heart surgery). Nothing surprising about his death. If anything, his smoking was his major health risk.
Old 09-07-2012, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by darkbunny1000 View Post
Thnx for the info because I really needed it for a short answer on Lyndon Johnson
I recommend that you read Cato's books on LBJ.

(Or any books, really.)
Old 09-07-2012, 08:16 AM
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So even if folks do not voice their own opinions in this thread, they are busy quoting others' opinions. Which leads me to question in my mind, what is a fact? What is straight dope? What is real? How can I know if something is real? Oy vey...

Last edited by bardos; 09-07-2012 at 08:17 AM.
Old 09-07-2012, 10:48 AM
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There's a famous video of LBJ asking a soldier to show him the scar from having been shot in the buttocks.
Old 09-07-2012, 11:12 AM
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I recommend that you read Cato's books on LBJ.
I prefer Cato's letters, myself.

For insight into LBJ, i turn to Caro.
Old 09-07-2012, 11:17 AM
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I prefer Cato's letters, myself.

For insight into LBJ, i turn to Caro.
*tears out bowels in shame*
Old 09-07-2012, 06:11 PM
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*tears out bowels in shame*
LBJ would want to see that, I'd say.
Old 09-07-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Hey, he knew what he wanted.
Old 09-12-2012, 11:56 PM
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LBJ would want to see that, I'd say.
Are you kidding?? I'd pay a fiver right now to see it!
Old 09-13-2012, 11:13 PM
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So, your source will be "I read something some guy posted on an Internet message board six years ago"?
It was on the Internet. It must be true.
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