Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
#1
Old 05-30-2006, 04:04 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 16,819
X-Men 3 inspired question about Mutant Classes (mild spoilers)

FTR, I've seen all three movies and not read any of the comics, so I'm not a junkie by any stretch.

In the third movie they make a big deal of Mutant Classes, saying Jean Grey/Pheonix is a Class 5 and is the most powerful they've ever seen. Earlier when Magneto is in that town hall meeting he is approached by Callisto who can sense other mutants and their "level". She claims that "none are higher than a level 3" except Magneto and Pyro.

The clear implication is that Magneto and Pyro are level 4's or better. Later in the movie Professor X and Magneto explain that Jean is the strongest they've ever seen, a class 5, which implies that they are both not level 5's.

So, do the comic books ever make clear what level the mutants are? It seems that Magneto is obviously much stronger than Pyro, but they are apparently both level 4's if you read between the lines in the movie.

That lame-ass porcupine guy is made up to be powerful but he has probably the wussiest powers I've seen in the movies. Beast is apparently a hell of a powerful mutant, but aside from being blue and furry he's just agile and strong, animal like, and not especially dangerous.

Is there any canon on where everyone fits?
#2
Old 05-30-2006, 04:12 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 14,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient
So, do the comic books ever make clear what level the mutants are?
Some of them, in any case. They don't use a number system, though. Greek letters. Alpha and Omega are, the two highest.

Wiki on Omega Level Mutants, including references to the lower levels. (Re: the potential Omegas....I'd say, if Apocalypse is only an Alpha, Legion, Scarlet Witch, and Jamie Braddock are the only ones on that list that might be Omegas.)
#3
Old 05-30-2006, 06:19 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The suburbs of Innsmouth
Posts: 4,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient
FTR, I've seen all three movies and not read any of the comics, so I'm not a junkie by any stretch.

In the third movie they make a big deal of Mutant Classes, saying Jean Grey/Phoenix is a Class 5 and is the most powerful they've ever seen. Earlier when Magneto is in that town hall meeting he is approached by Callisto who can sense other mutants and their "level". She claims that "none are higher than a level 3" except Magneto and Pyro.

The clear implication is that Magneto and Pyro are level 4's or better. Later in the movie Professor X and Magneto explain that Jean is the strongest they've ever seen, a class 5, which implies that they are both not level 5's.

So, do the comic books ever make clear what level the mutants are? It seems that Magneto is obviously much stronger than Pyro, but they are apparently both level 4's if you read between the lines in the movie.

That lame-ass porcupine guy is made up to be powerful but he has probably the wussiest powers I've seen in the movies. Beast is apparently a hell of a powerful mutant, but aside from being blue and furry he's just agile and strong, animal like, and not especially dangerous.

Is there any canon on where everyone fits?

Beast is powerful not for physical reasons, but because he's very very bright. Imagine Stephen Hawking in the body of Mike Tyson (which is amusing) and you'll get the idea. The guy with spikes..eh. Not all mutations are very useful in a battle.

Magneto is more powerful than Pyro, but they're still in the same neighborhood, since both can control something that's very common and dangerous (fire & metal).

I find it amusing that Mr. Immortal is an Omega, but it makes sense.
#4
Old 05-30-2006, 06:35 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: I'm right behind you!
Posts: 7,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient
That lame-ass porcupine guy is made up to be powerful but he has probably the wussiest powers I've seen in the movies.
Really? I couldn't help but laugh every time Callisto's skinny female friend in the mesh top appeared, because she never DID anything (except look like a sassy lesbian) until the last minute when it seemed like the writer/director had to justify her existence by having her send giant shockwave claps. Too funny.
#5
Old 05-30-2006, 06:39 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Rhombus
The guy with spikes..eh. Not all mutations are very useful in a battle.
Oh, I dunno. Multiple puncture wounds every time you strike an opponent or are hit by one? Imagine a fight between him and Beast, for example. Yeah, Spike probably won't be able to lay a hand on Beast, but if Beast lands a kick he's potentially crippled by having a dozen or more painful wounds to the soles of each of his feet.

I still give Beast the win in that fight, though. But at a cost.
#6
Old 05-30-2006, 06:58 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
I stopped reading comics by the early to mid-nineties. Up 'til then, I don't recall much emphasis being put on "classing" mutant power levels. You were either "powerful" or not. Magneto controls magnetism, and is considered one of the most powerful beings on the planet. Polaris was a mutant woman who also controlled magnetism, but she was always much weaker than Magneto. I don't think they assigned them a "class." She was just a wimp compared to Magneto.

They introduced a new idea with Jean Grey/Phoenix. That is, an energy wielding mutant put under sufficient pressure & stress could possibly mutate even further into a cosmic power level being. The first was Phoenix, but one time they played with it with Storm. Dr. Doom had encased her in a statue-like thing, and being claustrophobic, she freaked out and started reaching those cosmic power levels the way Phoenix had. But they talked her down before she killed everyone in sight.

What they would do, if you were geeky enough to buy an encyclopedia of Super Heroes, was assign each Super Hero a "strength class." It wasn't specific to mutants. Thor was a Norse god. Iron Man was just a techno-geek. Everyone got assigned a strength level.
#7
Old 05-30-2006, 07:08 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The bunghole of WA
Posts: 12,362
In the comics, I only ever heard "level" being applied to telepaths - and incidentally, telepathy seems to be the most common mutation. You see a lot of mutant telepaths/telekinetics, but not a lot of duplication of other abilities.

Then again, I haven't read all of the comics, so I could have missed "level" being used to describe other mutants.
#8
Old 05-30-2006, 07:17 PM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengu
Wiki on Omega Level Mutants, including references to the lower levels. (Re: the potential Omegas....I'd say, if Apocalypse is only an Alpha, Legion, Scarlet Witch, and Jamie Braddock are the only ones on that list that might be Omegas.)
If you get a chance read the nitpicky discussions attached to the Wiki. I envy their passion. Especially because trying to keep track of Marvel heros is like counting sand in the sahara.
#9
Old 05-30-2006, 07:32 PM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: temperate forest
Posts: 6,735
[QUOTE=Tengu]Some of them, in any case. They don't use a number system, though. Greek letters. Alpha and Omega are, the two highest. QUOTE]
Which of course makes sense in a nice ordered system of ranking, seeing as how Alpha and Omega are the FIRST and LAST letters in the alphabet! I wonder what the lowest level was supposed to be?
#10
Old 05-30-2006, 07:50 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 14,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quercus
I wonder what the lowest level was supposed to be?
Epsilon-Delta, according to the wiki. At least that's the lowest anyone's bothered mentioning that I've seen.

Omega being the highest level makes a lot of sense, actually - these are mutants who can cause the apocalypse with a stray thought.

Omega are the insanely powerful, cosmic-level mutants, for the most part - Mr M and Franklin Richards (and the potentials I mentioned agreeing with) can change reality to their specifications, and the Phoenixes can trash galaxies without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure how someone like Iceman, or Mr Immortal manage to make the cut, though. I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment.

Alpha are the massively powerful mutants who still have a power level that a normal person can concieve of.

Beta would be the standard superhero/supervillain mutant.

Epsilon-Delta would be latent or near-useless mutations - the largest group before 'M-Day'.
#11
Old 05-30-2006, 07:52 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
I stopped reading comics by the early to mid-nineties. Up 'til then, I don't recall much emphasis being put on "classing" mutant power levels.
The only classification-type scheme I recall was one in which the Sentinels had a list of "the Twelve." Cyclops, Storm, Franklin Richards and a few others were identified but I stopped reading the books before all of the Twelve were revealed or what they were supposed to be able to accomplish. I suppose there's a Wiki article about it but...i don't care.

Oh, who am I kidding. So it looks like the Twelve were Magneto, Polaris, Storm, Sunfire, Iceman, Cyclops, Phoenix, Cable, Bishop, Mikhail Rasputin, Professor X and the Living Monolith.

But since the concept was introduced something like 25 years before the storyline and a number of the characters didn't exist at the time, who knows what if anything the people who thought it up had in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
What they would do, if you were geeky enough to buy an encyclopedia of Super Heroes, was assign each Super Hero a "strength class." It wasn't specific to mutants. Thor was a Norse god. Iron Man was just a techno-geek. Everyone got assigned a strength level.
Different concept. The strength classifications (at least for Marvel) were how much a person could physically lift/press.
#12
Old 05-30-2006, 07:59 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Fifth corner of the Earth
Posts: 17,034
I liked the system from the Marvel Super Heroes RPG, where attributes and powers were rated on adjectives, like "Amazing" or "Uncanny".

Yes, I know, they had numbers too, but the adjectives were more fun.
__________________
--R.J.
Electric Escape -- Information superhighway rest area #10,186
#13
Old 05-30-2006, 08:02 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: A Glass Case of Emotion
Posts: 1,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Fight
Really? I couldn't help but laugh every time Callisto's skinny female friend in the mesh top appeared, because she never DID anything (except look like a sassy lesbian) until the last minute when it seemed like the writer/director had to justify her existence by having her send giant shockwave claps. Too funny.

HOLY SHIT!!! That was a girl?????? I thought it was a Prince looking dude. Shit!
#14
Old 05-30-2006, 08:05 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 2001
Location: In another castle
Posts: 18,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubastis
HOLY SHIT!!! That was a girl?????? I thought it was a Prince looking dude. Shit!
If it weren't for the bra, I probably wouldn't have figured it out either.
#15
Old 05-30-2006, 08:13 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The suburbs of Innsmouth
Posts: 4,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengu
I'm not sure how someone like Iceman, or Mr Immortal manage to make the cut, though. I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment.
Iceman potentially has control over all moisture on the planet, and in some versions can't be killed, since how do you permanently destroy water? He's just too insecure to tap into it.

Mr. Immortal apparently can't be killed. By anything. That's pretty good, power-wise.
#16
Old 05-30-2006, 08:21 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Queens
Posts: 12,125
Bras don't mean much either...
#17
Old 05-30-2006, 08:22 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 14,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Rhombus
Mr. Immortal apparently can't be killed. By anything. That's pretty good, power-wise.
Great defensively, but not really in the class of people who can redefine reality if so inclined.
#18
Old 05-30-2006, 09:33 PM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Different concept. The strength classifications (at least for Marvel) were how much a person could physically lift/press.
I know. Now that we're on the subject, I'm curious about where Dr. Strange fell into the scheme of things. Most heroes have powers or abilities that set them apart as "super." Then you have your beings who wield the Power Cosmic. They seem to form a separate class of powers. Dr. Strange, as Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, seemed like he could match a cosmic being in power levels.

Was he considered "cosmic" in power levels? I seem to recall he's taken on the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and one time he took down a pre-weakened Galactus.
#19
Old 05-30-2006, 09:53 PM
Guest
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 12,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
Was he considered "cosmic" in power levels? I seem to recall he's taken on the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and one time he took down a pre-weakened Galactus.
If he is, it's either only on Earth or in that dimension. I have no idea as to Dr. Strange, but Magik is Limbo's Sorceress Supreme and while when she's there, she's damn powerful, in the normal universe she's substantially less so.
#20
Old 05-30-2006, 10:03 PM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 14,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
I know. Now that we're on the subject, I'm curious about where Dr. Strange fell into the scheme of things. Most heroes have powers or abilities that set them apart as "super." Then you have your beings who wield the Power Cosmic. They seem to form a separate class of powers. Dr. Strange, as Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, seemed like he could match a cosmic being in power levels.

Was he considered "cosmic" in power levels? I seem to recall he's taken on the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and one time he took down a pre-weakened Galactus.
Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme of the Earth Dimension, meaning he's the most powerful wizard in the entire 616 universe and practically omnipotent despite his uneven handling so he would be the very definition of cosmic.
#21
Old 05-30-2006, 10:10 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
I know. Now that we're on the subject, I'm curious about where Dr. Strange fell into the scheme of things. Most heroes have powers or abilities that set them apart as "super." Then you have your beings who wield the Power Cosmic. They seem to form a separate class of powers. Dr. Strange, as Earth's Sorcerer Supreme, seemed like he could match a cosmic being in power levels.

Was he considered "cosmic" in power levels? I seem to recall he's taken on the Hulk, Silver Surfer, and one time he took down a pre-weakened Galactus.
From a strength perspective he has (and I can probably reproduce close to the exact phrase without looking it up) the normal strength of a man of his age and size who engages in moderate regular exercise. I am unaware that he has ever used his magic to increase his physical strength. He is this dimension's Sorcerer Supreme (unless things have changed) and as such has access to a wide array of personal mystical power along with being able to call on a wide variety of entities to "lend" him power. I recall a storyline where one or more of those entities, in exchange for all the loans over the years, tried to enlist Strange in a mystical war but I stopped reading before the resolution of that storyline (but Wiki says something about how he made some sort of deal or something and it's all just too complicated).

The Silver Surfer and other entities with access to the Power Cosmic can use it to augment their physical strength.

Again, the two things are different concepts. When Marvel talks about strength levels, they are purely talking about how much the person can physically lift unaided. Doctor Strange is much physically weaker than the Silver Surfer but it would be a fair fight because of the non-physical power Strange can bring to bear.

(Of course in actuality Marvel seems to adhere to what some fans call the Firelord Rule, meaning that a character is as strong as he needs to be to beat whoever he's fighting)
#22
Old 05-30-2006, 10:35 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 56,205
It's kinda funny in a way, since the original five X-Men were supposed to have rough power parity with each other. Cyclops and Iceman could, for example, could battle toe-to-toe without a conclusive victor until both were exhausted (admittedly, Cyclops wasn't trying to smush Iceman, though he probably could) and none of the five had Earth-shattering ability. Likely Spider-Man could've trashed 'em all. Gradual power inflation got to them, just as it did to Superman, to the point where writers have to come up with contrived ways for them not to wrap up the battle in less than five seconds.
#23
Old 05-30-2006, 10:56 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon
She was just a wimp compared to Magneto
So is everyone else.
#24
Old 05-30-2006, 11:12 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The bunghole of WA
Posts: 12,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Rhombus
Mr. Immortal apparently can't be killed. By anything. That's pretty good, power-wise.
Well, he can be killed, and does get killed. With great regularity (often by his own hand!)

He just "gets better." Every single time.

Just out of curiosity, are the Great Lakes Avengers now officially known as the Great Lakes X-Men?
#25
Old 05-31-2006, 12:56 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Likely Spider-Man could've trashed 'em all.
Hell, Spider-Man trashed the new X-Men in Secret Wars without breaking a sweat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Gradual power inflation got to them, just as it did to Superman, to the point where writers have to come up with contrived ways for them not to wrap up the battle in less than five seconds.
Actually, with the notable exception of Jean Grey/Phoenix/What-the-fuck-ever, they stayed pretty consistent in power levels for quite a long time. Angel, Cyclops and Iceman didn't have any big power boosts, really, ever until Angel got turned into Archangel. They just got better at using the powers they had. Beast went blue and hairy after he injected himself with an experimental serum but I'm not sure how much stronger he actually got.
#26
Old 05-31-2006, 03:46 AM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 17,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
From a strength perspective he has (and I can probably reproduce close to the exact phrase without looking it up) the normal strength of a man of his age and size who engages in moderate regular exercise. I am unaware that he has ever used his magic to increase his physical strength.
I wish I had access to my old comic collection. My Google-fu is failing me, but I seem to recall an issue of The Defenders penciled by Keith Giffen (which means it sucked) where Dr. Strange was taken over by something. He was using his powers to defeat his teammates, and at one point used sorcery to augment his physical strength to match the Hulk's (or maybe it was Silver Surfer). It seemed like if Stephen Strange wanted to, he could use sorcery in all the ways a cosmic powered being could manipulate matter, plus more so - what with the sorcery & all. If he wanted to use his powers that way - and normally he didn't - he could do just about anything much the same way Phoenix could do just about anything, once she got to that power level and lost all her inhibitions.

I could totally be misremembering though.
#27
Old 05-31-2006, 07:11 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, Britain
Posts: 1,021
Y'know, I think this is why I like DC. Yeah, it has lots of faults, but at least they don't get into massive "Cosmic One-Upmanship" of continual power/threat inflation (New Gods were 30 years ago, and since then they've failed to introduce any more "massive universe-destroying threat that can only be beaten by massive universe-destroying hero!!!one!").
#28
Old 05-31-2006, 07:16 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Clam
Y'know, I think this is why I like DC. Yeah, it has lots of faults, but at least they don't get into massive "Cosmic One-Upmanship" of continual power/threat inflation (New Gods were 30 years ago, and since then they've failed to introduce any more "massive universe-destroying threat that can only be beaten by massive universe-destroying hero!!!one!").
*cough*Anti-Monitor*cough*
*cough*Doomsday*cough*
*cough*Superboy Prime*cough*
#29
Old 05-31-2006, 07:23 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, Britain
Posts: 1,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
*cough*Anti-Monitor*cough*
*cough*Doomsday*cough*
*cough*Superboy Prime*cough*
Well, Doomsday and Superboy Prime I think of more as one-off plot devices (Superman dead- check- universe retconned- check) than threats, but-

you know what? I withdraw my statement. Anti-monitor alone. But I still think that Marvel does this with greater regularity.
#30
Old 05-31-2006, 07:42 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Home of the Stanley Cup
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Actually, with the notable exception of Jean Grey/Phoenix/What-the-fuck-ever, they stayed pretty consistent in power levels for quite a long time. Angel, Cyclops and Iceman didn't have any big power boosts, really, ever until Angel got turned into Archangel. They just got better at using the powers they had. Beast went blue and hairy after he injected himself with an experimental serum but I'm not sure how much stronger he actually got.
Cyclops has stayed pretty much the same.

Iceman got a massive power boost when he got his total ice form. He has control over moisture and can reform his body from any form of moisture, including urine. Yeah, it really has come up.

Angel lost his metal wings, then he lost his blueness (tired of smurf jokes I guess). Now he can heal people with his blood as long as the blood types are compatible. This means that he can heal people that are important to the plot. Minor characters just don't have the right blood type.
#31
Old 05-31-2006, 07:45 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Suburbs of Detroit, MI
Posts: 9,859
It seems to me that the concept of Omega-level mutants is suffering from shifting goalposts. As described, Omegas are basically gods, able to bend the universe to their will. In this case, Iceman is definitely not Omega-level, unless he has additional powers that are currently unknown. He's really more of an Alpha level guy, with the potential to be as powerful as Magneto. I'd say that Magneto, Apocalypse, Pyro, Professor X, Iceman, Storm, and probably Nightcrawler would be Alpha-level.
#32
Old 05-31-2006, 08:10 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Home of the Stanley Cup
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diceman
It seems to me that the concept of Omega-level mutants is suffering from shifting goalposts. As described, Omegas are basically gods, able to bend the universe to their will. In this case, Iceman is definitely not Omega-level, unless he has additional powers that are currently unknown. He's really more of an Alpha level guy, with the potential to be as powerful as Magneto. I'd say that Magneto, Apocalypse, Pyro, Professor X, Iceman, Storm, and probably Nightcrawler would be Alpha-level.
As I understand it, immortality has always been an omega level ability. They can't die. Period. They will always be back. Galactus could eat the world and everyone in it and Mr. Immortal and Iceman will be floating in space, alive if not happy. Phoenix could rip apart every atom of their being and they'll just reappear. Omega level doesn't have to mean cosmos shattering.
#33
Old 05-31-2006, 08:13 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborwolf
Cyclops has stayed pretty much the same.

Iceman got a massive power boost when he got his total ice form. He has control over moisture and can reform his body from any form of moisture, including urine. Yeah, it really has come up.

Angel lost his metal wings, then he lost his blueness (tired of smurf jokes I guess). Now he can heal people with his blood as long as the blood types are compatible. This means that he can heal people that are important to the plot. Minor characters just don't have the right blood type.
Right, what I said was that none of them got a power boost until Angel turned into Archangel. Angel ---> Archangel was first, Iceman's power boost came after that, as, obviously, did Archangel's losing his metal wings and gaining ::: shudder ::: healing powers.

Although technically Iceman's first big power boost was when Loki mucked with his powers and a belt that previously damped his powers completely started scaling them back to normal levels.
#34
Old 05-31-2006, 08:36 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Oh, I dunno. Multiple puncture wounds every time you strike an opponent or are hit by one? Imagine a fight between him and Beast, for example. Yeah, Spike probably won't be able to lay a hand on Beast, but if Beast lands a kick he's potentially crippled by having a dozen or more painful wounds to the soles of each of his feet.

I still give Beast the win in that fight, though. But at a cost.
Unless Beast were to use that genius-level intellect and, you know, hit him with a stick.

-Joe
#35
Old 05-31-2006, 08:47 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Hell, Spider-Man trashed the new X-Men in Secret Wars without breaking a sweat.
He did? I thought Spidey stumbled onto Magneto and went bouncing by in a ball made of girders while commenting to the X-Men, "I'll let you guys handle this one" - meaning that the X-Men were on a totally different power level from Spidey.

-Joe
#36
Old 05-31-2006, 08:54 AM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 10,857
Okay, I see a misconception running through here.

With regard to the comics - the Phoenix is not a part of Jean's mutation. It's an independent cosmic entity that existed before Jean was born and will continue to exist after she dies. It's had other hosts. Yes, they changed it for the movie.
__________________
-Official Doper Brat #007- When life gives you harlequins, make a harlequinade.
I am the very model of the modern kaiju Gamera / I've a shell that's indestructible and endless turtle stamina. / I defend the little kids/ and I level downtown Tokyo/ in a giant free-for-all mega-kaiju rodeo.
#37
Old 05-31-2006, 09:16 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by CandidGamera
Okay, I see a misconception running through here.

With regard to the comics - the Phoenix is not a part of Jean's mutation. It's an independent cosmic entity that existed before Jean was born and will continue to exist after she dies. It's had other hosts. Yes, they changed it for the movie.
Yeah, well, in the movie Phoenix was sort of an after thought and a plot device rather than a character.

Speaking of which, was X3's budget so low that they couldn't afford some convincing hair dye for Famke? She was a much more convincing redhead last time around. However, her gothgirl dress looked pretty yummy on her.

-Joe
#38
Old 05-31-2006, 09:23 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merijeek
He did? I thought Spidey stumbled onto Magneto and went bouncing by in a ball made of girders while commenting to the X-Men, "I'll let you guys handle this one" - meaning that the X-Men were on a totally different power level from Spidey.
Been a while since I've read the series but as I recall Spider-Man (I really hate the nickname "Spidey") somewhere around issue 7 stumbled across those X-Men who were there, off by themselves planning on being stand-offish and all "mutants are doin' it for themselves." When they realized he was there they tried to take him down but he took them out and skedaddled.

Oops, my mistake. Looks like it was issue 3 and it ended with Professor X mind-raping...excuse me, mind-wiping Spider-Man so he couldn't spill their plans to join up with Magneto.
#39
Old 05-31-2006, 09:52 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merijeek
Yeah, well, in the movie Phoenix was sort of an after thought and a plot device rather than a character.

Speaking of which, was X3's budget so low that they couldn't afford some convincing hair dye for Famke? She was a much more convincing redhead last time around. However, her gothgirl dress looked pretty yummy on her.

-Joe
Fortunate, that, since her dye job was completely botched from the get-go and the glow of the Phoenix-force gave her such a lovely radiant zombie complexion.

(No, I'm not bitter about the movie, why do you ask...?)

On topic with the OP: IIRC, Jean was a pretty powerful telepath/telekinetic by herself before the Phoenix took over--maybe a Class 4, at Xavier's level. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, though...
#40
Old 05-31-2006, 09:56 AM
Guest
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 12,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kythereia
On topic with the OP: IIRC, Jean was a pretty powerful telepath/telekinetic by herself before the Phoenix took over--maybe a Class 4, at Xavier's level. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, though...
I'm pretty sure she's not at Xavier's level without the Phoenix; probably more along the lines of Emma Frost.
#41
Old 05-31-2006, 10:01 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Home of the Stanley Cup
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kythereia
On topic with the OP: IIRC, Jean was a pretty powerful telepath/telekinetic by herself before the Phoenix took over--maybe a Class 4, at Xavier's level. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, though...
Unfortunately, her habit of Phoenixing every so often makes it hard to tell exactly what her power level really is. Where does Jean end and the Phoenix begin in other words.

I'm going to say that she was at least Xavier level if not an outright omega. The last time Jean became Phoenix, it was because Wolverine killed her with his claws. She had to die to come back in full cosmic glory. She was pretty potent before then.
#42
Old 05-31-2006, 10:15 AM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
It's been stated as canon time and again that Xavier is the single most powerful human telepath on Earth (or he was before getting de-powered in House of M). He's taken on Phoenix one-on-one at least once and won, in X-Men 136. He notes that he won only because "Jean herself" helped him, but as it turned out that was actually the Phoenix Force in a duplicate of Jean's body and not actually Jean. Since Jean sans Phoenix was around both before and after that battle and Xavier was continually referred to as the most powerful telepath on Earth, I'm gonna go with Marvel's on repeated statement and put Jean sans Phoenix at a lower level of telepathic ability than Xavier. Overall though J-s-P more powerful than Xavier because she's also a telekinetic.
#43
Old 05-31-2006, 10:29 AM
Guest
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 14,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborwolf
As I understand it, immortality has always been an omega level ability.
Based on the Omega wiki, Apocalypse - who has immortality (if not such strict bodily immortality as Mr I), and a host of other powers - is, by his own admission, only an Alpha, so that's clearly not the case. (And Poccy's not the kind to downplay his power level.)

If Poccy's not an Omega, Iceman and Mr I certainly shouldn't be higher than Alpha.
#44
Old 05-31-2006, 10:37 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,133
As someone who dropped out of comics in the early 90's...

What's all this about Iceman being one of the super-duper powers? How is that even a little bit crazy?

-Joe
#45
Old 05-31-2006, 10:51 AM
Guest
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 12,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengu
If Poccy's not an Omega, Iceman and Mr I certainly shouldn't be higher than Alpha.
Apocalypse's mutant power is immortality, in that he is immune to the effects of passing time; he won't die of old age. It also makes him extremly difficult to kill, but he can be killed, unlike Mr. Immortal.

All his other "powers" come from the technology he has, which IIRC are from a spaceship he found?
#46
Old 05-31-2006, 10:56 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Hell, Spider-Man trashed the new X-Men in Secret Wars without breaking a sweat.
No, he ESCAPED from them without breaking a sweat. I agree that he could take Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and Cyclops without too much difficulty, and possibly Storm and Rogue--but in an all-out battle, Colossus and Rogue would be major problems for him. And as a group--sorry, I just don't buy it. Spidey won that encounter because his aim was simply to GET OUT OF THE ROOM and report the X-men's (supposed) treachery to the other heroes; because they were in an enclosed space (keeping Storm from going full force, and restricting Rogue's acceleration room), and because he had at least ten times the reaction time of anyone there, he succeeded. (Besides, he ultimately lost, as Xavier mindwiped him.)
#47
Old 05-31-2006, 10:59 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Oops, my mistake. Looks like it was issue 3 and it ended with Professor X mind-raping...excuse me, mind-wiping Spider-Man so he couldn't spill their plans to join up with Magneto.
You had it right the first time.
#48
Old 05-31-2006, 12:49 PM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 56,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
Oops, my mistake. Looks like it was issue 3 and it ended with Professor X mind-raping...excuse me, mind-wiping Spider-Man so he couldn't spill their plans to join up with Magneto.
There's a no-prize in there, because in issue #8, Spidey (nyah!) tangles with Titania and kicks her ass, while commenting along the lines of "With a little room to maneuver, nobody can lay a hand on me. Not the Absorbing Man [who'd taken a swing at Spidey earlier in the issue], not the X-Men, and not you."

You can explain it away by saying Xavier felt guilty about wiping Spidey's memories and consciously or subconsciously restored them.


Heck, early on, Xavier himself could only read people within a two-mile radius, though this was casually ignored when convenient, as when he mentally followed the battle aboard Asteroid M, Magneto's orbiting headquarters, back in X-Men #5 (May 1964).
#49
Old 05-31-2006, 01:19 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Madison WI
Posts: 22,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers
Heck, early on, Xavier himself could only read people within a two-mile radius, though this was casually ignored when convenient, as when he mentally followed the battle aboard Asteroid M, Magneto's orbiting headquarters, back in X-Men #5 (May 1964).
At some point he learned to use the Earth's magnetic force lines to increase the range of his telepathy (how this would help him read minds that are in orbit is unclear). Magneto made some subtle shift to those lines, which reduced Xavier's range and caused him to have "static."
#50
Old 05-31-2006, 01:20 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 4,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
(how this would help him read minds that are in orbit is unclear).
Van Allen Belts extend much beyond normal orbit.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 AM.

Copyright © 2017
Best Topics: ky massaging oils painful fingertips junior birdmen latin learning book battle cats snl insomnia frequent urination gayest thing ever coca seeds legality lump song meaning single speaker amplifier rollercoaster synonyms batman yellow walmart sterile water cheap ti84 toddler swallowed marble merl reagle quotes tires blowing up one brown bear thing under mattress boa safe pass force trim can't find printer cat jaw clicking military leg wraps minesweeping ww2 secular gospel music folly you fools mako imdb mentats real life eyebuydirect shipping time happy days hairstyles aboriginal surnames oxycodone cough jane wyman at ronald reagan's funeral amazon order sent to wrong address how to make someone a host on facebook event two hairs one follicle female how long can slow cooker stay on warm is podiatry school hard how long before you knew she was the one what does otep stand for best lincoln town car year the pattern is full amazon.com return policy on opened items can scanners listen to cell phones chilly willy theme song smack my ass and call me sally faberge brooch pawn stars lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit translate rock bands with black singers abbott and costello niagara falls b and h store hours what does white truffle taste like blue christmas lights meaning why doesnt teller speak big girl panties meaning special forces class a can oversleeping give you a headache do dogs get tired of barking eye prescription 20 20 can i use drano in my dishwasher not going to jury duty california walnut pie vs pecan pie why does breaking your neck kill you