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#1
Old 09-08-2006, 09:56 AM
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Men are very wary of 20 and 30 something female virgins - Is it with good reason?

Re this Salon article (req short ad preview) the notion seems to be that mature female virgins are potential oddballs who will fixate on you and/or have high emotional expectations for the man who is their first, and potentially be very emotionally vulnerable.

I could see this for teenagers, but is there any truth to this for mature female virgins re the expectations, and fixating and vulnerability part? As an adult female gets older, and is still a virgin should the red warning lights flash faster? Should they flash at all?

Intro to article below

Quote:
Sept. 6, 2006 | When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn't know it. She wasn't ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?" The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn't know how to answer, and she didn't really want to. "One year? Two years?" She didn't respond. "Don't tell me you're a virgin?" he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. "No offense, but most people do that in high school," he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he'd already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, "like I was some disgusting object."

"It made me scared to date, scared to talk to guys. It was like, 'Oh my God, they're all going to do this,'" she says. She still tried, occasionally, and after about a year she met another guy, someone else from work. But then he also didn't know she was a virgin, and one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers, and while she laughs nervously now as she retells the story, it wasn't funny then. It reminded her of the last time and she started to cry. But this guy was actually nice about it, telling her things like "That guy was such an asshole" and "You should say you just haven't found the right guy; be more self-confident." It made her feel better, and when he left he said he'd call her the next day. But he didn't call until the following week and things went downhill from there. "He never really said it was because I was a virgin," Amanda says. "But that was the point when everything shifted."
#2
Old 09-08-2006, 10:15 AM
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Aren't male virgins put in the same spotlight?
#3
Old 09-08-2006, 10:16 AM
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I'd love to find one of these women!
#4
Old 09-08-2006, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriarTed
I'd love to find one of these women!
Or more so. After all, female virginity is still prized by some people/some cultures.

The OP is so alien to me I can hardly understand it...men getting turned off and disgusted by virgnity? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some are, but to think the majority are? Not my experience, for sure.
#5
Old 09-08-2006, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro
I could see this for teenagers, but is there any truth to this for mature female virgins re the expectations, and fixating and vulnerability part? As an adult female gets older, and is still a virgin should the red warning lights flash faster? Should they flash at all?
I would expect a teenager just to be a girl having sex for the first time.

If she was a 30 year old, I would expect that she had been saving herself for something special. If I was a guy just playing the field, I would be worried about her becoming emotional/clingy/whatever.

I totally get that vibe. I would seriously wonder why she hadn't had sex before, and have to really be into her to want to go through with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaamika
The OP is so alien to me I can hardly understand it...men getting turned off and disgusted by virgnity? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some are, but to think the majority are? Not my experience, for sure.
After a certain point, I see it.

Who made the joke about the Islam martyrs in heaven. . .a virgin or two might be nice, but after a while you're like, "bring in a professional, would ya?"
#6
Old 09-08-2006, 10:29 AM
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I also have no idea where these people are coming from. I don't think I'd ever date a virgin knowing that she'd never have sex with me until we were married, but I'd have problem dating one if she just hadn't found the right guy. Either way, I wouldn't react as if she had leprosy.
#7
Old 09-08-2006, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaamika
The OP is so alien to me I can hardly understand it...men getting turned off and disgusted by virgnity?
Um, yeah... that's really weird. A lot of men don't care one way or the other, of course, but IME it's somewhat common for men to be wary of sluts and desire a virgin. In fact I've never heard a guy say that virginity was undesirable in a woman. (Que discussion of double standard of male vs. female promiscuity.)
#8
Old 09-08-2006, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaamika
Or more so. After all, female virginity is still prized by some people/some cultures.

The OP is so alien to me I can hardly understand it...men getting turned off and disgusted by virginity? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some are, but to think the majority are? Not my experience, for sure.
The article seems to be addressing fear of virginity (by men) mainly in the context of the potential dam of pent up expectations that will break once the act is consummated, and flood the countryside with emotional expectations.
#9
Old 09-08-2006, 10:30 AM
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Make that, "I'd have no problem dating one if she just hadn't found the right guy."
#10
Old 09-08-2006, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
Who made the joke about the Islam martyrs in heaven. . .a virgin or two might be nice, but after a while you're like, "bring in a professional, would ya?"
That would be "Dennis Miller."
#11
Old 09-08-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro
The article seems to be addressing fear of virginity (by men) mainly in the context of the potential dam of pent up expectations that will break once the act is consummated, and flood the countryside with emotional expectations.
See, I'll grant that that's probably far-fetched. As if you'd wake up the next morning and she's saying, "OK, when can you meet my parents?"

But, that said, I'd definitely be more worried about it with a 30 year old virgin than with a non-virgin.
#12
Old 09-08-2006, 12:06 PM
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I dated a 30-odd year old male virgin and wouldn't ever do it again. It had all the hallmarks of screwed up, stalker behavior.

If we shared the same values (both of us saving ourselves for marriage) it would be different. But he was "forgiving me" for my indiscretions - fine if I'd regretted any of them.
#13
Old 09-08-2006, 12:17 PM
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Advice to you CNBC* people out there:
1. Lie.
2. Manage your expectations carefully.
3. Study non-celibate behavior and model it.
4. Lie.

In the words of a salon.com reader, "This debate is all about society's need to crush everyone who doesn't strictly conform to its 'mainstream' dictates." Don't let yourself be crushed.

*Celibate, Not By Choice
#14
Old 09-08-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriarTed
I'd love to find one of these women!
You, my friend, are behind me in the looooooong queue
#15
Old 09-08-2006, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chowder
You, my friend, are behind me in the looooooong queue
You can have my spot.

You guys seriously want to line up for a 30 year old virgin? It's not a 17 year old virgin. It's a 30 year old virgin. You really think that's hot? You really want to be a 30-year old's first lover?
#16
Old 09-08-2006, 01:00 PM
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Go with that thought. What does it mean to you? What does it have to mean to the rest of us?
#17
Old 09-08-2006, 01:03 PM
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If things had been different, I would have been one of these 20-30 something female virgins.

I was painfully shy and very serious in High School and during my first years as a full-time college student. Working, studying and trying to get through the academic process ate up the time that my comtemporaries spent dating and having sex.

There is nothing wrong with a woman who has never had sex. She may have been to busy with getting her career started to date or maybe (gods forbid) she wanted to know who she was before she shared herself with another person.
#18
Old 09-08-2006, 01:10 PM
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Its been my experience that guys want a virgin, no matter the age. They want to be the ones to "take the innocence." And they won't think, "Gee, hes not that good."
#19
Old 09-08-2006, 01:14 PM
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While I won't be lining up anytime soon (I value my life and Mrs. D_Odds would be taking it away if I did), I can honestly say that regardless my age, it never mattered. All that ever mattered was whether or not she wanted to do it. If yes, let's go. If no, let's stop. If waiting for a ring, however, that would have been another story. I wasn't about to make that kind of commitment without a test drive (never encountered that situation, though).
#20
Old 09-08-2006, 01:14 PM
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The less rational side of my brain entertains a few fears about dating a 30-year-old virgin.

-What if she's that way because she sex has never been a priority for her? What if that doesn't change?

-What if she discovers she loves it so much that she suddenly feels compelled to fuck every guy she sees? (Happened to a friend of mine.)

-What if her first time results in "That's it? That's what the big deal is? Gee, I barely even felt a thing."
#21
Old 09-08-2006, 01:14 PM
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Am I the only one to find it strange that both of these guys apparently found it not only appropriate but downright pleasant to chat about former lovers while cuddling with someone they hadn't even had sex with yet?
#22
Old 09-08-2006, 01:18 PM
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I'm afraid that I'd assume there was some kind of religious thing going on. I can't imagine asking a lady, however. "When was the last time?" What kind of question is that? If she brings it up, then there's a reason for mentioning it (I'd hope that the reason would be more "I was a virgin until later tonight, so don't get too freaky" rather than "God won't let me, so don't get your hopes up").

If he asks, he's a jerk.
#23
Old 09-08-2006, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware of Doug
Go with that thought. What does it mean to you? What does it have to mean to the rest of us?
I already did. I suspect that there is a lot more emotional baggage with a 30 year old virgin than anyone of "Casual dating and sex" age would want to deal with.

My question is to people who are going "GET IN LINE, MAN!"

Apparently they think this is hot. . .a 30 year old virgin.

So, why do they think she's a virgin at the age of 30?

Either

1) She probably isn't that hot at all, virgin or not. Hasn't had boyfriends, or HAS had boyfriends, but got NUTSO when it got to having sex-time.

OR

2) She's been saving herself for that someone special. I'm not criticizing you if that's your thing, but it's not the kind of thing that should induce the "woo hoo, get in line" stuff. Is this the kind of thing that these guys are getting in line for. . .that finally they can have sex with that girl who's been waiting for that someone special? I don't think so.

A 17 year old, nice tight skin, perky tits, virgin, exploring things for the first time. . .sure, I see why guys think that's hot (personally, I've outgrown that, but whatever).

But, of all the reasons I can imagine that a 30 year old hasn't had sex yet, none of them are hot. By the time I was 30, I just wanted someone who knew what they were doing. . . AND, were going to be reasonably cool after we'd had sex. That's not something I would expect from a 30 year old virgin.
#24
Old 09-08-2006, 01:27 PM
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The either/or part is where you go astray, Trunk. People have more stories than you know, or I guess, want to know.
#25
Old 09-08-2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse_Maven
There is nothing wrong with a woman who has never had sex. She may have been to busy with getting her career started to date or maybe (gods forbid) she wanted to know who she was before she shared herself with another person.
I think this is the exact problem. Some guys are going to think that a woman who is too busy with career stuff to have sex is a woman without much of a sex drive. The average guy (and a lot of the guys on this board have revealed this mind-set) think that anyone who has gone more than a month or two without sex is insane, and have a hard time relating to people who have been celibate for a long time before relationships. They would view mature virgins the same way...."they musn't like sex very much if they can do without for so long".

And the typical male libido also would have problems with someone thinking they had to completely understand themselves before having sex. Heck, I'm almost 50 and I still have days when I don't know who I am! That's an evolving process, not a finite skill. It's not like learning to ride a bike, after all....self-discovery doesn't have an end-by date. So I can see why a guy would be bewildered by that kind of explanation.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with those rationales, just that I can understand how a guy would be puzzled by someone denying their sex drive, and would be worried that it signals a disinterest in sex in general, not a "waiting for the right person" point of view.
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
But, of all the reasons I can imagine that a 30 year old hasn't had sex yet, none of them are hot. By the time I was 30, I just wanted someone who knew what they were doing. . . AND, were going to be reasonably cool after we'd had sex. That's not something I would expect from a 30 year old virgin.

EXACTLY!

I've deleted three posts trying to come up with that one.
#27
Old 09-08-2006, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
But, of all the reasons I can imagine that a 30 year old hasn't had sex yet, none of them are hot.
Hot coma victim?

I admit it, I'd be put off by an older virgin, because I'd first assume hyperreligiousness, then mental instability. (Especially in the case of male virgins, yes that's a double standard, but I can't help it.) But if I were the virgin in question I would be way more put off by someone asking about my experience in such a bold way.

Though it goes against my better judgment to be honest at all times, if I were in that situation, I would lie. Maybe not so much about going "all the way" (since, come on, a guy would be able to TELL, I bled like a fountain and cried the first time), but at least about having prior relationships and some sexual experience. If he truly is "the one," you can tell the truth to him later, and if he's a good guy he won't give a shit.
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
She probably isn't that hot at all, virgin or not.
::inner feminist:: If you are not beautiful in the popularly accepted sense, you can't have an intimate relationship with another person? Growl, snarl. Stupid pop culture::inner feminist::

Ahem - I know I fell into the "ugly virgin" catagory. Anyway, back to the OP:

It takes some people longer to develope than others. If a person is a late bloomer, it shouldn't be held against them. Not everyone hits 15 or 16 and immediately starts looking for sex.
#29
Old 09-08-2006, 01:42 PM
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Guess I'll be a voice of dissent here...I really find the idea of a virgin at that age to be a turnoff. At 30, you just expect...I want a woman who knows what feels good to her, and has at least a working knowledge of what feels good to a man. I'm just not into the whole candles and make-love-on-a-bearskin-rug first time thing. I'd be terrified that I might traumatize her beyond recovery by doing something that a 30 year old woman with a normal sexual history would expect (or at least know how to refuse). I like my first time with someone new to be either really hot, or very laidback and light-hearted. Serious stuff is for serious relationships, and if two people are serious before they have sex together, that's great, but it's not usually like that in my experience.

The knowledge that it's her first time ever would squick me out, and make me feel alot of pressure to make it amazing, which is the best way to make it not amazing. People can act cool about it, but if a girl is still carrying around her virginity at 30, there's alot of psycho-sexual baggage tied up with it, and I just don't want that kind of situation.

Virgin at 20 though, no problemo, always glad to help out.
#30
Old 09-08-2006, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittenblue
I think this is the exact problem. Some guys are going to think that a woman who is too busy with career stuff to have sex is a woman without much of a sex drive. The average guy (and a lot of the guys on this board have revealed this mind-set) think that anyone who has gone more than a month or two without sex is insane
One word: vibrator.

I like sex. I have been through loooong periods of time without a partner. If you have a healthy attitude about masterbation, you can do without a man until you're ready.
#31
Old 09-08-2006, 01:45 PM
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Kinda with Grossbottom here. A 30 yo virgin would make me wonder what else was wrong with her. Anybody who can't get laid by that age has some issues I don't want to deal with. It may be a belief system, a stringent moral character, a too-high standard in a partner....whatever. There are many other fish in the sea for me to hassle with this one.
#32
Old 09-08-2006, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse_Maven
It takes some people longer to develope than others. If a person is a late bloomer, it shouldn't be held against them. Not everyone hits 15 or 16 and immediately starts looking for sex.
With 15 years between 15 and 30 there's "slow development" and "not trying/issues".

Sex is just too natural to me. If there are reasons in your life for which sex is something youve put off until your thirties, be it religion, someone special, ick factor, fear or whatever; youve got way more vested into the decision to have sex than I could or would ever want to cope with.

Like someone once said "I don't have to be first, I want to be next."
#33
Old 09-08-2006, 01:46 PM
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Dating and meeting people in an impersonal society gives rise to a lot of stereotypes. They come out of self-protection nobody wants to be stalked, after all. But there's no clear line to be drawn. Society winds up "protecting" itself from a "class" of people who really aren't all that alike, or all that different from the rest of society.
#34
Old 09-08-2006, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware of Doug
The either/or part is where you go astray, Trunk. People have more stories than you know, or I guess, want to know.
No, I want to know.

I really want to know what a guy finds so hot about a 30 year old virgin that he's going "That's going to be a loooooooong line."

Is it just knee-jerk, frat-boy, "high-five me, Bro, I tagged a virgin" ? Or is there something to it?
#35
Old 09-08-2006, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
No, I want to know.

I really want to know what a guy finds so hot about a 30 year old virgin that he's going "That's going to be a loooooooong line."

Is it just knee-jerk, frat-boy, "high-five me, Bro, I tagged a virgin" ? Or is there something to it?
I'd be kind of interested in that answer too.
#36
Old 09-08-2006, 01:53 PM
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Well...in my culture it's very much a "no one's been there before me". Those men don't even like sloppy seconds after years.

Generally, it's probably related, plus a nice guy might be thinking of all the nice stuff he gets to teach her. I mean, there's no denying it's nice to teach someone something and have them really enjoy it!

Otherwise it may just be a knee-jerk thing.
#37
Old 09-08-2006, 01:54 PM
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I pretty much agree with what Trunk said. I find virginity to be more of a turn-off the older the woman gets. It's not like it's been an issue for me in a long time but when I was young and single, I was always wary of virgins. It wasn't that I thought they were physically repuslive or anything, I was just worried that they would want something much more emotionally heavy than what I wanted (sex). Part of it was that (exactly as Trunk said) I couldn't think of any very appealing reason why a woman would still be a virgin. I worry that they had social problems or worse were super religious and either way, it would require more work and emotional investment to get what I wanted out a relationship (sex) than I was willing to put in. I admit, I was always worried they were going to get emotionally clingy and want to marry me if I ever had sex with them. It wasn't completely selfish, it really had more to do with not wanting to hurt the other person than anything else. I wasn't willing to break a girl's heart (in my perhaps overly arrogant mind) just to get a piece of tail. Plus, a virgin isn't going to be very good at sex anyway.
#38
Old 09-08-2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
You can have my spot.

You guys seriously want to line up for a 30 year old virgin? It's not a 17 year old virgin. It's a 30 year old virgin. You really think that's hot? You really want to be a 30-year old's first lover?

Fuck no. Too much pressure. With how some sex is romanticized in novels and film, I am sure I would be a great let down. I think you would be pressured to do something with candles, waterfalls, horses, or beaches that just doesn't happen too much in the real day to day world. Just think to how many people you know that say their first time was a "Wham Bam, Thank You Ma'am" type of thing... That would be a total let down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse_Maven
One word: vibrator.
I like sex. I have been through loooong periods of time without a partner. If you have a healthy attitude about masterbation, you can do without a man until you're ready.
So how you doing?...
#39
Old 09-08-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 934spe

So how you doing?...
::blush:: Married. ::blush:: Mouse_Spouse is a little intimated by my electric lover.


Apparently, I'm the only person who believes that a woman in her late twenties/early thirties can be a virgin and not be needy, clingly or very religious.
#40
Old 09-08-2006, 02:12 PM
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Wasn't there a study in the past couple of years that said girls & women who took virginity pledges were more likely to do anal, but still consider themselves abstinent?

Just food for thought.
#41
Old 09-08-2006, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse_Maven
::blush:: Married. ::blush:: Mouse_Spouse is a little intimated by my electric lover.


Apparently, I'm the only person who believes that a woman in her late twenties/early thirties can be a virgin and not be needy, clingly or very religious.
Happily married as well, so no harm, no foul.


I never said that one shouldn't wait, if that is what they desire. I just feel that with my "past", I am a more caring lover now.

My point was that by their late twenties/early thirties, I am sure a woman would have some sort of "idea" in their head of what it should/will be like the first time and this idea might lead up to some real dissappointment. For me anyways, time in the sack is part love and part physical pleasure and relaxment. I don't think I would be able to relax if all the pressure was put on me to bring the experience. It was this dissapointment factor that could have negative impacts on any relationship afterwards, with resentment being one emotion that I would fear the most.
#42
Old 09-08-2006, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk
You can have my spot.

You guys seriously want to line up for a 30 year old virgin? It's not a 17 year old virgin. It's a 30 year old virgin. You really think that's hot? You really want to be a 30-year old's first lover?
heh, I aint a picky bloke
#43
Old 09-08-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 934spe

My point was that by their late twenties/early thirties, I am sure a woman would have some sort of "idea" in their head of what it should/will be like the first time and this idea might lead up to some real dissappointment. .
But see, I lost it when I was 20 and had real expectations of what it should be like and was disapponted also! I think that relates to the way we bring up daughters, with tales of Prince Charming and crap like that, never telling them what men are really like - fallible and normal just like the rest of us.

I don't know that there's any particular extra expectations after another 10 years.
#44
Old 09-08-2006, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 934spe
My point was that by their late twenties/early thirties, I am sure a woman would have some sort of "idea" in their head of what it should/will be like the first time and this idea might lead up to some real dissappointment. For me anyways, time in the sack is part love and part physical pleasure and relaxment. I don't think I would be able to relax if all the pressure was put on me to bring the experience. It was this dissapointment factor that could have negative impacts on any relationship afterwards, with resentment being one emotion that I would fear the most.
One of my biggest pet peeves is how "loaded" sex is. Like you, I see this act as part love and part physical, but we add so much more to this. If the relationship is getting serious, wouldn't it be a good idea to talk about what your needs and desires are and listen to your partner? How is the performance anxiety with a 30 year old virgin any different from any other new lover?
#45
Old 09-08-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 934spe
I think you would be pressured to do something with candles, waterfalls, horses, or beaches that just doesn't happen too much in the real day to day world.
WHAT?!?!?!

Every time I've had sex there's been a horse and a waterfall and a beach and candles and shit.

No Really! I mean it!
#46
Old 09-08-2006, 02:29 PM
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Location: Newcastle NSW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaamika
But see, I lost it when I was 20 and had real expectations of what it should be like and was disapponted also! I think that relates to the way we bring up daughters, with tales of Prince Charming and crap like that, never telling them what men are really like - fallible and normal just like the rest of us.

I don't know that there's any particular extra expectations after another 10 years.
Both men and women have expectations their first time, some of which may get disappointed. And I suspect that a 15 yo virgin (of either sex) can have more romantic expectations than a 25 yo virgin (again of either sex).

I'm way too old for it ever to be of personal interest to me, but wouldn't it depend on why she was a virgin? If she was the shy, introverted type who found it hard to get boyfriends it's different from the one who vowed to stay untouched for religoious reasons until married. Many years ago, I could have dealt with the first kind by being friends first, and taking everything slowly without rushing anything, but I don't think I could have dealt with the second type at all.
#47
Old 09-08-2006, 02:29 PM
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Location: St. Paul, MN
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Some people make way too big a deal out of the first time. The first time is almost always horrible for everybody. It doesn't matter if the other person is "the one" or not.

I also can't fathom how being experienced at sex takes anything away from "the one" when they eventually come along.
#48
Old 09-08-2006, 02:30 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alice_in_wonderland
Every time I've had sex there's been a horse and a waterfall and a beach and candles and shit.
Uhh, actually, no shit. (Praise the Lord Baby Jesus).
#49
Old 09-08-2006, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Newcastle NSW
Posts: 12,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by alice_in_wonderland
Uhh, actually, no shit.
I can't help thinking of this quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by W B Yeats
Love has pitched his mansion in the place of excrement
#50
Old 09-08-2006, 02:35 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 31,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles

I'm way too old for it ever to be of personal interest to me, but wouldn't it depend on why she was a virgin? If she was the shy, introverted type who found it hard to get boyfriends it's different from the one who vowed to stay untouched for religoious reasons until married. Many years ago, I could have dealt with the first kind by being friends first, and taking everything slowly without rushing anything, but I don't think I could have dealt with the second type at all.
Oh, yes, it absolutely would. The girl in my mind is your first example - the shy quiet one. Or how about the one who WAS saving herself for marriage, because that's what she'd been taught, but as she grew older, realized that for her at least it was a crock of shit. but now she's in her late 20's before she realizes it.

I couldn't deal with your second example in a guy, either. At this point in my life I would have no problem dating a virgin male provided he wasn't planning to stay that for long!

alice,
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