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#1
Old 12-01-2008, 08:15 AM
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Why "Sí, se puede" rather than "Sí, podemos"?

When Obama's campaign slogan is translated into Spanish, why is it translated as "Yes, it can be done" rather than "Yes, we can"? And while I'm at it, why do businesses advertise "Se habla español" (Spanish is spoken) rather than "Hablamos español" (We speak Spanish)? Is it a colloquialism, or maybe an idiom?
#2
Old 12-01-2008, 08:20 AM
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It's idiomatic -- Spanish speakers have several different constructions which will communicate "Spanish spoken here". "Se habla español" became the stock expression for no particularly logical reason ... as human language is wont to do.
#3
Old 12-01-2008, 08:33 AM
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Is it the case in general, then, that a third person plural slogan tends to come out as a passive third person? And is it just slogans, or is it applied in ordinary speech?
#4
Old 12-01-2008, 08:43 AM
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During WC 2006 the Ecuadoreans would chant "si se puede" during their games (they did reach the second round). I'm guessing it also just sounds better than the alternative, at least in terms of chants.
#5
Old 12-01-2008, 08:50 AM
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FWIW, there are many bumper stickers around here that say "Obamanos!" I think it's pretty cool (Vamanos means, "let's go").
#6
Old 12-01-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal View Post
Is it the case in general, then, that a third person plural slogan tends to come out as a passive third person?
A Spanish-speaking Doper can give you better perspective than I can, but I will take a crack at it.

Don't think of constructions using "se" strictly as passives. Very often (perhaps even "more often" from a frequency-of-use standpoint) you're seeing instead use of what's called the "impersonal se":

Quote:
As the equivalent of the English passive voice: By using se, particularly when discussing inanimate objects, it is possible to indicate some sort of action without indicating who performed the action. Grammatically, such sentences are structured in the same way that sentences using reflexive verbs are. Thus in a literal sense, a sentence such as se venden coches means "cars sell themselves." In actuality, however, such as sentence would be the English equivalent of "cars are sold" or, more loosely translated, "cars for sale."
Examples: Se abren las puertas. (The doors are opened.) Se vendió la computadora. (The computer was sold.) Se perdieron los llaves. (The keys were lost.) Se prohibe fumar. (Smoking is prohibited.)

...

The impersonal se: In some sentences, se is used in an impersonal sense with singular verbs to indicate that people in general, or no person in particular, performs the action. When se is used in this way, the sentence follows the same pattern as those in which the main verb is used reflexively, except that there is no subject to the sentence that is explicitly stated. As the examples below show, there are variety of ways such sentences can be translated to English.

Examples: Se maneja rápidamente en Lima. (People drive fast in Lima.) Se puede encontrar cocos en el mercado. (You can find coconuts in the market.) Muchas veces se tiene que estudiar para aprender. (Often you have to study to learn.) No se debe comer con prisa. (One ought not to eat quickly.)

Quote:
And is it just slogans, or is it applied in ordinary speech?
See above. The "impersonal se" seems to be widely used in speech.
#7
Old 12-01-2008, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santo Rugger View Post
FWIW, there are many bumper stickers around here that say "Obamanos!" I think it's pretty cool (Vamanos means, "let's go").
I was taught in Spanish class that "vamanos" wasn't a real word. "Let's go" is "vamos". Whether "vamanos" is really used by Spanish speakers or is only used by gringos and Speedy Gonzales, I am unsure.

FWIW,
Rob
#8
Old 12-01-2008, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sweeteviljesus View Post
I was taught in Spanish class that "vamanos" wasn't a real word. "Let's go" is "vamos". Whether "vamanos" is really used by Spanish speakers or is only used by gringos and Speedy Gonzales, I am unsure.
Sone quick & dirty Googling revealed that some Spannish speakers believe vámonos to be perfectly correct Spanish -- part of the conjugation for irse (to leave), though, not ir (to go). Some others don't seem to use vámonos at all. Maybe the usage for this word varies by country/dialect.
#9
Old 12-01-2008, 09:17 AM
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The slogan is in the impersonal. It's a form that's quite common in Spanish in places where English has to resort to the passive form. Recipe books for example can use either the imperative (common in cookbooks) or the impersonal (science recipes, which in English go in the passive form).



Vámonos and vamos are both perfectly correct Spanish. Vámanos isn't.

Vámonos would indicate "let's leave;" vamos would be "let's go," both in the moving sense and in the sense of getting a move on.
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Last edited by Nava; 12-01-2008 at 09:19 AM.
#10
Old 12-01-2008, 09:44 AM
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I do not agree that the examples cited by bordelond are passive voice but rather impersonal. But Spanish tends to use the "se" passive/impersonal rather abusively.

"Se habla inglés", "English is spoken", (Where? In England?) is bad enough but "se murió" (he died) make no sense. "Murió" is correct. He died. It is not reflexive, it is not passive, it is not impersonal. He died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweeteviljesus View Post
I was taught in Spanish class that "vamanos" wasn't a real word. "Let's go" is "vamos". Whether "vamanos" is really used by Spanish speakers or is only used by gringos and Speedy Gonzales, I am unsure.

FWIW,
Rob
You need a better Spanish teacher. Which does not surprise me because I have met quite a few Spanish teachers in America who could barely speak a few words of Spanish.

Not only is "vámonos" perfectly good Spanish for "let's go" but I have always used "let's vámonos" even in English.

Vamos is "we go".
Nos vamos is "we are leaving".
Vámosnos (shortened to vámonos) is "let's leave" in most of the Spanish-speaking world just by usage because originally, in old Spanish, it was the same as "nos vamos" and in Asturias they retain that construction to this day.
#11
Old 12-01-2008, 09:53 AM
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Again, for "Se Habla Espanol" the closest literal translation into English uses the passive voice, but the feeling in Spanish is much less passive/formal/beauracratic. I think 'Hablamos Espanol' would seem weird to native speakers, like saying "Let's speak Spanish together" on a sign.

But for Poder/Poderse, I think it's a little less clear-cut. In fact, I have seen "Juntos Podemos" signs (I think for Deval Patrick for Massachusetts Governor but not sure); probably nearly as many as "Se puede" signs for various campaigns.
#12
Old 12-01-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
I do not agree that the examples cited by bordelond are passive voice but rather impersonal. ...

"Se habla inglés", "English is spoken", (Where? In England?) is bad enough but "se murió" (he died) make no sense. "Murió" is correct. He died. It is not reflexive, it is not passive, it is not impersonal. He died.
Sailor, where did the examples "Se habla inglés" and "se murió" come from? I didn't see them in my link.
#13
Old 12-01-2008, 10:03 AM
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They're normal constructions in Spanish, borderlond.

"Se habla (insertlanguagehere)" is the normal construction for "(language) spoken." To answer sailor, the place where it's spoken is the one where you see the sign.

"Se murió" means "he died." The "se" is reflexive and emphatic: you'd say that someone "se murió," you'd say a plant "murió." If it was a pet and you cared about it, you'd use "se murió," if you couldn't wait to get rid of the fleafarm in question you'd say "murió."

Last edited by Nava; 12-01-2008 at 10:04 AM.
#14
Old 12-01-2008, 10:09 AM
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As a spanish speaker i was surprised by that.
IMHO "Yes *we* can" should have been translated as "si, *nosotros* podemos" or better yet "si, podemos" or "podemos hacerlo".

I feel the "se puede" translation lacks the inclusive nature of the original "*we* can".}
"Se puede" is impersonal, "podemos" is inclusive.
#15
Old 12-01-2008, 10:20 AM
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17th century Spanish soldier, sailor and adventurer Alonso de Contreras discovered his wife in bed with another man and in his autobiography he, very casually, writes
Quote:
yo, que no dormía, procuré andar al descuido con cuidado, hasta que su fortuna los trajo a que los cogí juntos una mañana y se murieron. Téngalos Dios en el cielo si en aquel trance se arrepintieron.
And on to other things.
#16
Old 12-01-2008, 10:24 AM
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jejeje, free translation "... i found them together one fine morning, and they died, may God have them in heaven, if they repented during their deaths"

even funnier if you know about the alternative Argentinian dialect meaning of "Cogí", that Nava and I talked about in other thread...
#17
Old 12-01-2008, 10:25 AM
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I would suggest that "se murió" is neither a reflexive nor impersonal use of the verb "morir," but the application of the verb "morirse." There are many, many verbs like this in Spanish.

In way of contrast, there is also the verb "hablarse," but it's not being used in the examples above.
#18
Old 12-01-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
Vámonos and vamos are both perfectly correct Spanish. Vámanos isn't.
Thanks, I spelled it wrong. Of course, it makes sens that it says Obamanos instead of Obamonos when combining the words.

I've been around Spanish speaking people my whole life; I wish I had made more of an effort to pick it up when I was younger.
#19
Old 12-01-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
I would suggest that "se murió" is neither a reflexive nor impersonal use of the verb "morir," but the application of the verb "morirse." There are many, many verbs like this in Spanish.

In way of contrast, there is also the verb "hablarse," but it's not being used in the examples above.
The verb "morirse". That's a good one. Where did you learn your Spanish? And your grammar, for that matter?
#20
Old 12-01-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
I would suggest that "se murió" is neither a reflexive nor impersonal use of the verb "morir," but the application of the verb "morirse." There are many, many verbs like this in Spanish.

In way of contrast, there is also the verb "hablarse," but it's not being used in the examples above.
Those are reflexives. What's reflexive is (generally) the verb itself, not the usage. The verb isn't reflexive without the reflexive pronoun so the pronoun is considered part of the verb.

Sometimes the reflexive and transitive versions of a verb have very different meanings and then each gets its own dictionary entry. Others, like morir(se) aren't different enough to merit two entries. For example, here the RAE uses a reflexive form in the entry for "morir," there is no entry for "morirse." The example with the reflexive is in item 7, it's an emphatic reflexive (as if "dying for a picture" wasn't exageration enough, we go and add the "se").


I agree with Frodo that in the case posited by the OP (a political slogan) I would have gone for the personal form: "Podemos." Given that Obama's message involves inclussion, I'd further have gone for "entre todos podemos" or somesuch ("all of us, together, can" - yeah, it back-translates like shite).

Last edited by Nava; 12-01-2008 at 11:24 AM.
#21
Old 12-01-2008, 11:39 AM
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One thing I learned about in Spanish that doesn't quite seem to be mentioned here is the use of se constructions when people aren't discussing responsibility, like falling down, or things breaking, etc. People aren't intentionally falling down or breaking things. In English we just say "you broke it" but I was taught that one should use a se form to avoid an accusatory tone. Basically, in colloquial English, "It went and broke on you." Or "I fell [down]" would be "me caí". Is the same thing happening here with morir?
#22
Old 12-01-2008, 11:45 AM
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Yes, they're called reflexive forms. Se murió, se cayó. Not "se habla" which is an impersonal (somebody says), but something like die or fall down which you "do to yourself."
#23
Old 12-01-2008, 11:57 AM
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Can somebody remind me what reflexive means?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
I agree with Frodo that in the case posited by the OP (a political slogan) I would have gone for the personal form: "Podemos." Given that Obama's message involves inclussion, I'd further have gone for "entre todos podemos" or somesuch ("all of us, together, can" - yeah, it back-translates like shite).
It also chants like shite, too, especially for a group of people that is comprised of only 50% Spanish speakers. It's also (a bit) harder to put on a bumper sticker.
#24
Old 12-01-2008, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Santo Rugger View Post
Can somebody remind me what reflexive means?
Referring or happening to oneself. When the subject and object are the same individual or thing, this is reflexive. "I see myself." 'Myself' is a reflexive pronoun.
#25
Old 12-01-2008, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by erislover View Post
One thing I learned about in Spanish that doesn't quite seem to be mentioned here is the use of se constructions when people aren't discussing responsibility, like falling down, or things breaking, etc. People aren't intentionally falling down or breaking things. In English we just say "you broke it" but I was taught that one should use a se form to avoid an accusatory tone. Basically, in colloquial English, "It went and broke on you." Or "I fell [down]" would be "me caí". Is the same thing happening here with morir?
That's interesting because I remember reading long ago about an African language that had no reflexive pronouns. And so, it was impossible to say something like, "I cut myself". Instead, the speaker would say, "the knife cut me".
#26
Old 12-01-2008, 01:21 PM
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I'd just like to remind folks that Obama didn't use that slogan arbitrarily. Cesar Chavez had the United Farm Workers adopt the slogan during Chavez's 1972 25-day fast. Obama chose the phrase from that source.
#27
Old 12-01-2008, 02:08 PM
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And your source for that is?

For all I know, Obama's source could have been the lyrics to Diego Torres' "Color Esperanza". "Se puede" isn't an expresion Chávez copyrighted...

"Saber que se puede,
querer que se pueda,
quitarse los miedos,
tirarlos afuera..."

To know that we can,
to want to be able
to get rid of the fears,
to throw them out...

Last edited by Nava; 12-01-2008 at 02:09 PM.
#28
Old 12-01-2008, 02:09 PM
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The 'Sí podemos' phrase was already taken - by the Spanish version of Bob the Builder (Yes We Can).



En serio.
#29
Old 12-01-2008, 02:12 PM
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Wasnt Bob el Constructor's slogan "Podemos Hacerlo"?
#30
Old 12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
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Maybe Bob translations varied across the Spanish-speaking world, but here is the version I am familiar with:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ny7KarnM3X4

On edit - you're right too, Frodo- they say both

¿Podemos hacerlo? is the question;
Sí podemos is the reply - 'yes we can'.

Last edited by Martha Medea; 12-01-2008 at 02:26 PM.
#31
Old 12-01-2008, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
The verb "morirse". That's a good one. Where did you learn your Spanish? And your grammar, for that matter?
Where did you learn your manners, sailor? It's a wonder we attempt to learn a second language at all with such rude and pointless criticism to combat.

Nava I think jayjay's point is that ''Si se puede,'' wherever Obama co-opted it from, had more narrative weight than if he had used something else, because of its association with Latin American/Latino political movements in general. I think of ''si se puede'' on the same level as ''el pueblo unido jamás será vencido'' (The people, united, will never be defeated.) Both have to do with an attempt to achieve a political goal through the power of the people. Obama was taking something familiar with deep roots when he used that slogan--it was no accident.

When Obama started using ''si se puede'' there were many Latino critics who felt it wasn't fair to co-opt the slogan, that it belonged to Chavez and the United Farm Workers. I don't remember how one voter put it, but something like, ''You don't go out and say something like ''si se puede'' unless you were part of Chavez' movement and you fought that fight and you know what you're talking about.'' Of course when the UFWU came out in support of Obama, that smoothed things over a bit.
#32
Old 12-01-2008, 02:33 PM
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Would it be correct to think about the impersonal se as equivalent of the impersonal one, in English, i.e. se peude= one can*?




*although not as it's being used in the slogan mentioned in the OP, of course.
#33
Old 12-01-2008, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
Nava I think jayjay's point is that ''Si se puede,'' wherever Obama co-opted it from, had more narrative weight than if he had used something else, because of its association with Latin American/Latino political movements in general. I think of ''si se puede'' on the same level as ''el pueblo unido jamás será vencido'' (The people, united, will never be defeated.) Both have to do with an attempt to achieve a political goal through the power of the people. Obama was taking something familiar with deep roots when he used that slogan--it was no accident.
And mine is that Chávez isn't Obama's only possible source of inspiration, or one that seems particularly sane. The song I quoted is a pretty recent Latino-wide hit. "Sí, se puede" was... not so much a slogan as a "frozen phrase" way before Chávez made it his. Claiming ownership on that line is like trying to copyright "Vale."


Yes, Charlie Tan.

Last edited by Nava; 12-01-2008 at 02:57 PM.
#34
Old 12-01-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
The verb "morirse". That's a good one. Where did you learn your Spanish? And your grammar, for that matter?
Huh? There are all sorts of these. I'm guessing that if you read further down, you'll see that my Spanish and grammar are corroborated by native speakers.
#35
Old 12-01-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
And mine is that Chávez isn't Obama's only possible source of inspiration, or one that seems particularly sane. The song I quoted is a pretty recent Latino-wide hit. "Sí, se puede" was... not so much a slogan as a "frozen phrase" way before Chávez made it his. Claiming ownership on that line is like trying to copyright "Vale."
I don't disagree. I'm sorry about the confusion, but I wasn't insisting Obama got it from Chavez so much as trying to explain why Obama chose ''si se puede'' as opposed to, say, ''si podemos'' per Frodo's suggestion. I suggest that Obama chose ''si se puede'' specifically because it has recognizable narrative weight -- whether it comes from Chavez o Color Esperanza or any other source, si se puede carries the specific cultural connotation of overcoming hardship through the power of the people.

Of course, that's assuming ''si podemos'' doesn't have equal weight or historic precedent--for all I know it does. I was just offering an explanation of why si se puede vs. anything else.
#36
Old 12-01-2008, 07:51 PM
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Wow, this thread went quick. I am too late to be of use, so I will just vote for post #6 as an answer to the OP.

And I would say no to Charlie Tan in #32. "Se puede" means that it can be done, not necessarily that one can.
#37
Old 12-01-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
Huh? There are all sorts of these. I'm guessing that if you read further down, you'll see that my Spanish and grammar are corroborated by native speakers.
Nope. There is no verb "morirse". There is only the verb "morir". How da hell would you conjugate "morirse"? The verb is morir.
#38
Old 12-01-2008, 08:25 PM
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Maybe I can do a slight hijack here. Similarly to the OP, why is the men's department in stores (Target, Walmart and others) labeled caballeros rather than hombres?

Bob
#39
Old 12-01-2008, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Nope. There is no verb "morirse".
It took me fifteen seconds to go to the Real Academia Española website and look up the verb "morir" and find the notation "usado también como pronominal," in other words, also used as a reflexive verb - morirse. Google returns 987,000 hits for "morirse."

As to how to conjugate it, the answer is like any other reflexive verb: me muero, te mueres, se muere, nos morimos, os morís, se mueren; me moriré, te morirás, and so forth.

urban1z, "caballeros" means "gentlemen" and is often used in such contexts (similarly with bathroom doors and so forth, and in the phrase "caballeros y señoras," "ladies and gentlemen").

Last edited by matt_mcl; 12-01-2008 at 08:48 PM.
#40
Old 12-01-2008, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_mcl View Post
It took me fifteen seconds to go to the Real Academia Española website and look up the verb "morir" and find the notation "usado también como pronominal," in other words, also used as a reflexive verb - morirse. Google returns 987,000 hits for "morirse."

As to how to conjugate it, the answer is like any other reflexive verb: me muero, te mueres, se muere, nos morimos, os morís, se mueren; me moriré, te morirás, and so forth.
Nope, As the Real Academia says, the werb is "morir". There is no verb "Morirse", just like there is no verb peinarse, bajarse, dejarlo, subirse, subirlo, subirla, etc. The verb is subir and the particles are added to the verb. That the word is found in Google is irrelevant. The word is valid but it is a compound word formed by the verb and the particle.

The RAE confirms what I said. There is no such verb as "morirse". The verb is Morir.
#41
Old 12-01-2008, 09:06 PM
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Damas y Caballeros. Ladies and Gentlemen.
#42
Old 12-01-2008, 09:07 PM
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Yo morirme
Tu morirte
El morirse
Nosotros morirnos
Ustedes morirse
Ellos morirse

Tu Jane, yo Tarzan.
#43
Old 12-01-2008, 09:10 PM
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I will add that the placing the particle in front or after the verb is a matter of usage which has changed over time and geography.

Whereas Spaniards today would say "acabarse" some centuries ago "se acabar was more common
Quote:
Nuestras vidas son los ríos
que van a dar en la mar,
que es el morir;
allí van los señoríos
derechos a se acabar
y consumir;

- - - Jorge Manrique (1440-1479) Coplas por la muerte de su padre
(one of the most beautiful pieces of medieval Spanish literature)
As I already mentioned while Castilians today would say "se murió" (clearly showing the verb is morir), Asturianos would say "murióse".

Castilians would say "le dije" whereas Asturianos and old Spanish would say "díjele".

There is no way those particles would ever be considered part of the verb.
#44
Old 12-01-2008, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapo View Post
Yo morirme
Tu morirte
El morirse
Nosotros morirnos
Ustedes morirse
Ellos morirse

Tu Jane, yo Tarzan.


Yo amarte mucho.
Como la trucha al trucho.
#45
Old 12-01-2008, 09:27 PM
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I would add regarding the RAE that, while I consider it an authority, I do not give them the ultimate word. For many years I maintained against the RAE that LL was two letters as was CH. Finally they changed their stance. My position is not that I was wrong then and right now. My position is that they were wrong then and right now. But, of course, it is all a matter of opinion. There is no ultimate authority. At least I do not recognize one.
#46
Old 12-01-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Nope, As the Real Academia says, the werb is "morir". There is no verb "Morirse", just like there is no verb peinarse, bajarse, dejarlo, subirse, subirlo, subirla, etc. The verb is subir and the particles are added to the verb. That the word is found in Google is irrelevant. The word is valid but it is a compound word formed by the verb and the particle.

The RAE confirms what I said. There is no such verb as "morirse". The verb is Morir.
Look at the link. The example in item 7 uses morirse.

Sapo, you know perfectly well that todos nos morimos antes o después. In reflexive verbs/usage the pronoun generally goes before the verb.

You guys don't like Spanish grammar and usage, fine. But sorry, last I looked the RAE was the authority, not you. Claiming that the use of "morirse" is incorrect is like claiming that the use of "-ico" as a diminutive ending is incorrect: it may make you feel very macho but also look very dumb. I do expect better of you two, and please stop making me feel like I'm back in one of the 20-boys birthday parties to which my brothers got invited, running after idiotic boys who think that jumping into an empty pool is a jolly good idea.
#47
Old 12-01-2008, 10:23 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Washington dc
Posts: 16,441
No, I am not saying it is not used. Of course it is used. What I am saying is that morir and morirse are not two different verbs but that morirse is morir with the reflexive particle "se" added. Just like matar and matarle are not different verbs either.

Look, go to the RAE http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/ and introduce "morirse" and this is what you get:
Quote:
La palabra morirse no está en el Diccionario.
At least that's what I get.

The very fact that you find "morirse" under "morir" is proof that the RAE agrees with me and not with you. They do not consider it a separate verb. And since you consider them the ultimate authority I guess this matter is settled.
#48
Old 12-01-2008, 11:13 PM
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You didn't make yourself clear -- you appeared to be saying that "morirse" doesn't exist. I think everyone knows that "morirse" is a compound of "morir" and the clitic "-se," and not some sort of hypothetical separate word.

There was no need for you either to split that particular hair, or to be so rude over it.
#49
Old 12-01-2008, 11:28 PM
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Location: Washington dc
Posts: 16,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_mcl View Post
You didn't make yourself clear -- you appeared to be saying that "morirse" doesn't exist. I think everyone knows that "morirse" is a compound of "morir" and the clitic "-se," and not some sort of hypothetical separate word.

There was no need for you either to split that particular hair, or to be so rude over it.
Since I was responding to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
I would suggest that "se murió" is neither a reflexive nor impersonal use of the verb "morir," but the application of the verb "morirse." There are many, many verbs like this in Spanish.

In way of contrast, there is also the verb "hablarse," but it's not being used in the examples above.
which clearly implied morir and morirse are different verbs and since I said
Quote:
There is no verb "morirse". There is only the verb "morir". "
Notice I said "verb" not "word".
and also
Quote:
The word is valid but it is a compound word formed by the verb and the particle.
I thought I was clear. Maybe you need to read more carefully. Or maybe I need to write more carefully. At any rate, you do know I am a native Spaniard? How would it be possible for me not to know the word "morirse"?
#50
Old 12-01-2008, 11:36 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Washington dc
Posts: 16,441
Balthisar, I am sorry if my post came across as offensive as it was not meant that way. I just found it funny. Please don't take offense.
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