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Old 03-17-2010, 10:39 PM
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Peggy Hill: insecure do-gooder or arrogant moron?

What say you?
Old 03-17-2010, 10:45 PM
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Can't she be both, like the late--OK, OK.

I definitely see a lot of insecurity there, but the fact that she never admits to her flaws, but covers them up by going further and further makes her sort of moronic. Like the ep where she supervises a field trip to Mexico and accidentally takes home a Mexican girl because she misunderstands the girl's Spanish. She never admits to the fact that she's not that good and then she just gets in deeper and deeper.
Old 03-17-2010, 10:47 PM
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Arrogant moron, mostly. She's not exactly evil, but she's pretty self-absorbed.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:23 PM
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Totally both.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:38 PM
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I think she can be both, which is why despite how annoying she is, she's one of my all time favorite television characters. You can see she has a deep thread of insecurity in several episodes, like when she's pitching for Hank's softball team and she starts throwing clunkers when she thinks Hank lost faith in her. Or the episode where they go back to Montana and she's so hurt/angry by her mother's complete dismissal of her life. On the other hand, she can be unbelievably arrogant and moronic, like in the aforementioned ep about the Mexican girl, or when she wrote Bobby's essay and became enraged that nobody was giving her credit for the A grade. Yet at other times, she shows signs of genuine intelligence, even brilliance.

Most of the characters on KotH are like that. Dale is both a completely paranoid conspiracy nut who genuinely believes the Government is dangerous and out to get him, and at the same time, so blindly trusting that his wife can have an affair under his nose for like 12 years.

My husband hates Peggy and has gotten to the point that he won't even watch Peggy-centric episodes. He'd definitely vote arrogant moron.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:47 PM
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Yeah, put me on the Peggy hate train. She was believable initially, but she annoyed the hell out of me after the Mexican kid on the bus episode.
Old 03-17-2010, 11:52 PM
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A 32 post thread here on Peggy Hill. Put me on the both side. She always wants to do good, but is so self-absorbed and altogether dim, she ends up looking like an arrogant moron...sort like how a shy person can get mispegged as "stuck up".
Old 03-18-2010, 08:22 AM
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Arrogant moron. But since they have the balls to write a believable female with this quality, I find her boneheadedness kind of endearing.
Old 03-18-2010, 08:24 AM
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arrogant do-gooder.
Old 03-18-2010, 09:02 AM
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Take for instance, the episode where she got a job as a substitute teacher in a Catholic school. How a "do-gooder" would lie about being Catholic and teach kids incorrectly is beyond me. She sucks.

I think they thought it would be funny to take her character to zanier levels but she lost believability and really became a cartoon character. Compare that Peggy to the one that went to the Boggle tournament... much more likable and believable.
Old 03-18-2010, 09:12 AM
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As a watcher from the very first to the very last () episodes, she was definitely both. Its just a matter of if one side seems more important (or annoying) to you.

Over the years I've found that this always seems to be the deciding factor in people either loving or absolutely hating the show, how they feel about Peggy!
Old 03-18-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hippy Hollow View Post
Compare that Peggy to the one that went to the Boggle tournament... much more likable and believable.
"Well, at least you're better than... Boggle-Playing Chicken?!"

I'm with salinqmind: arrogant do-gooder.
Old 03-18-2010, 01:32 PM
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Sometimes, though, I do lean towards arrogant moron. I'm thinking of the scam PhD episode. She was really dumb enough to shell out her and Hank's savings for some diploma in a can scheme? Yes, she does trick the guy in the end, but falling for the scheme to begin with? That's like Nigerian scam dumb.
Old 03-18-2010, 01:36 PM
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The Peggy episodes can bother me, but they aren't as bad as the Bill episodes. They both work much better as background characters.
Old 03-18-2010, 01:55 PM
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I think she's the poster child for unskilled and unaware of it. She's so unskilled, she can't even see how incompetent she is.
Old 03-18-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FordTaurusSHO94 View Post
The Peggy episodes can bother me, but they aren't as bad as the Bill episodes. They both work much better as background characters.
Oh god, yes. The Bill episodes are just too depressing for words. I can't stand them. It seems like almost every Christmas episode is an excuse for depressed Bill.

Well, I liked the one when he got with Laoma, Kahn's mom, but of course we never saw her again.
Old 03-18-2010, 02:40 PM
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There were some Bill episodes I liked. I liked the one where they went to visit his cousins in Louisiana and got sucked into a Tennessee Williams play, and also the episode he dated Ann Richards.
Old 03-18-2010, 04:42 PM
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Arrogant Moron.

When Bobby cheats at Don't Spill The Beans by shoving beans up his nose and has to be taken to the hospital, what's Peggy's reaction? It's not "Oh than G-d my baby is okay now!" . It's not "It's wrong to cheat, Bobby." . It's 'I guess this means I win the game.' .

When Bobby breaks up with whatsername (Voiced by Sarah Michelle Gellar only appears in one episode), the first thing Peggy says is 'I guess your love WASN'T stronger than me and your fathers', huh?'.


I love KOTH. I hate Peggy.
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Amazing View Post
There were some Bill episodes I liked. I liked the one where they went to visit his cousins in Louisiana and got sucked into a Tennessee Williams play, and also the episode he dated Ann Richards.
That one I liked, too, since it was pretty funny and it didn't hinge on "Isn't Bill PATHETIC?! LAUGH! Laugh at the LOSER!"

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Originally Posted by DocCathode View Post
Arrogant Moron.

When Bobby cheats at Don't Spill The Beans by shoving beans up his nose and has to be taken to the hospital, what's Peggy's reaction? It's not "Oh than G-d my baby is okay now!" . It's not "It's wrong to cheat, Bobby." . It's 'I guess this means I win the game.' .

When Bobby breaks up with whatsername (Voiced by Sarah Michelle Gellar only appears in one episode), the first thing Peggy says is 'I guess your love WASN'T stronger than me and your fathers', huh?'.


I love KOTH. I hate Peggy.
I don't love Peggy but those moments I found rather funny because it's so the opposite of a typical sitcom mom. The Sarah Michelle Gellar love interest in particular because Bobby's whole, "Our love is stronger than yours" actually prompts a competitiveness in Peggy. Yeah, it does show her to be pathetic but the fact that she's actually in competition with her son and later on tries to get Hank to hold hands in public to show Bobby up--it's lame but I found it funny. I mean, if it happened in real life, it would be horrifying, but in sitcom land, I like it.

I think when those moronic Peggy moments stop becoming just moments and become entire episodes (trip to Mexico, PhD scam, etc.), then they're too painful to watch.

I also did enjoy the episode where Hank and the others actually call Peggy on her BS, at the country musical festival. But in that episode, she actually is in the right because Randy Travis has stolen her song.
Old 03-18-2010, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
That one I liked, too, since it was pretty funny and it didn't hinge on "Isn't Bill PATHETIC?! LAUGH! Laugh at the LOSER!"

What Bill-centric episodes hinge on "Laugh at the LOSER!"? I think all of his episodes are well done with real depth and surprisingly touching. Like the one where he goes crazy because it's Christmas and Lenore is gone and he gets better when he realizes he's worth a "Dear John" letter and an explanation. Or when Hank gets fed up with all of Bill's problems and then finds out that he has Bill's name tattooed to his head and why he does.
Old 03-18-2010, 05:01 PM
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I've only seen that Christmas episode with the pretty dresses once and it was a while ago, but I remember it being pretty depressing. Is that the one you're talking about, with the letter? If the "happy" ending is that he's worth a Dear John letter, then...eh....I don't see that as all that uplifting.

There was also the one where he thinks he was part of a military experiment and that's why he's so fat and bald and pathetic, and then he realizes that no, it's just him.

And then there was that Christmas one where he played Santa for the kids and everyone loved him so he kept doing it after the point where it got creepy.
Old 03-18-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
If the "happy" ending is that he's worth a Dear John letter, then...eh....I don't see that as all that uplifting.
It's Bill. You have to take the uplifting stories you can get.
Old 03-18-2010, 05:54 PM
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Peggy's a kind of both, but she leans towards the arrogant moron side a bit too much for me; enough so that she's my least favorite character one the show. Although, when we meet the Manger Babies, she has the best exchange with Bobby.

Bobby: So if dad's God, that must make me Jesus!
Peggy: Bobby no! That's for Luanne to decide.

As for Bill, he's so pitiful that I can't help but like him. He doesn't have the best episodes (Dale and Bobby IMO), but I always enjoy them a lot.
Old 03-18-2010, 06:48 PM
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Lot of Peggy hate here. Let me peg a few glimmers of hope.

-She's the only one on her block who didn't know Nancy was cheating on Dale, you can call that utterly moronic but when she catches them together John Redcorn says later "What kind of game is she playing?", even Nancy admits, "Peggy just sort of sees the best in people."

-She puts up with Cotton.

-She's dominant in a way that Hank isn't when it matters, cite Luanne's trashy mother.

-She loves to teach and her reward is often self-effacing. As just about all teaching is.

-She verbally bitchslapped the pretentious self absorbed soccer moms, who on gods green earth hasn't wanted to do that?

-She singlehandedly stood up for womans rights at the local Renaissance Fair and brought a lawsuit on an ass who badly needed it.


There are plenty more...seriously...no love?
Old 03-18-2010, 06:57 PM
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:19 PM
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Peggy's mch more complicated than most here would admit, I guess. The thing is, she's been caled, and probably is, the smartest person is Arlen (granted, that's a shallow pool, but still). Her issue is that while she is very smart she's also intellectually lazy and doesn't apply herself very much. Her insecurity and her laziness are two seperate major issues. She probably could learn better Spanish - but she's taken the idea that she's so much smarter than everyone else to mean she doesn't have to. This also comes back to bite her because when she really wants something, she can easily persuade herself she deserves it.

That said, she watches out for others, too (except Cotton Hill, but I have a hard time imagining Saint Francis of Assisi caring for Cotton Hill). She genuinely doesn't mean to hurt others. But again, she's intellectually lazy and often won't look outside of what she thinks they ought to have, do, or want.

This is kind of an interesting contrast to Hank, of course, since his major faults are pretty minor, but basically come down to very small comfort zone of prescribed interactions and not wanting to step out of it. Of course, this makes sense if you think of him as having the really major insecurity issues, and given Cotton HIll's parenting, I don't think anybody can blame him.
Old 03-18-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
...-She puts up with Cotton...
And she had her own Crowning Moment of Awesome when she finally told him off on his deathbad. Those were the last words he ever heard.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:37 PM
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I never saw that episode--what did she say to him on his deathbed?
Old 03-18-2010, 11:46 PM
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I've only seen the first and second seasons. I thought she was definitely a good person who wanted to help people but had self-esteem issues back then. Sounds like she got more cartoony and annoying as the series went on?

One of my favorite exchanges (paraphrased) from the first (I think) season:

Hank: I ... can't ... shoot!
(pause)
Peggy: I ... (gulp) ... I still love you.

The utter trauma in her voice was hysterical.
Old 03-18-2010, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I never saw that episode--what did she say to him on his deathbed?
Peggy: Why won't you die?!

Cotton: This was supposed to happen to you. You're worthless. You're not even good enough to be married to my worthless nothing of a loser son.

Peggy: Enough! Your son has always loved you despite your constant torture. You want to die alone? Fine. You want to keep coming back and never die? That's fine, too. In fact, I hope you do go on living forever as the unhappy person you are in the hell you have created here on Earth. I hope you live forever. I really do.

Cotton: Do you now?

<Cotton dies>
Old 03-19-2010, 12:38 AM
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I still love that her motivation to walk again after she fell out of the plane was that Cotton told her she could dance on his grave.

Despite her competitiveness and some of her more shallow moments, I think she's a good mom. Bobby's a great kid with a lot of self-confidence, and that's primarily because of Peggy. In the episode where she finds out that she's been unknowingly posing for a foot fetish website, Bobby has a great line.

Bobby: I'm fat
Peggy: Oh no, you're husky.
Bobby: It's okay! I don't feel bad about it because you never made me feel bad about it.

She gets Bobby when Hank won't or can't. And she always did her best to protect and encourage Luann (though some would argue her bid to make sure she didn't marry Lucky was a dick move).
Old 03-19-2010, 01:07 AM
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I still love that her motivation to walk again after she fell out of the plane was that Cotton told her she could dance on his grave.

Despite her competitiveness and some of her more shallow moments, I think she's a good mom. Bobby's a great kid with a lot of self-confidence, and that's primarily because of Peggy. In the episode where she finds out that she's been unknowingly posing for a foot fetish website, Bobby has a great line.

Bobby: I'm fat
Peggy: Oh no, you're husky.
Bobby: It's okay! I don't feel bad about it because you never made me feel bad about it.

She gets Bobby when Hank won't or can't. And she always did her best to protect and encourage Luann (though some would argue her bid to make sure she didn't marry Lucky was a dick move).
As annoying as Peggy can be, I definitely agree she's a great mother, probably the best in the series. (Minh is much to strict, Nancy is too concerned with John Redcorn or her career, Hank's mom is a pushover when it came to Cotton's treatment of Hank, and Peggy's own mom is a bitch frankly.) She's a great surrogate mother to Luanne up until she meets Lucky (sabotaging Lucky's GED studies was IMO the worst thing she does on the show), but after they're married, she's goes back to being good for her.
Old 03-19-2010, 03:54 PM
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Arrogant moron.

I hate Peggy. If there was anyone on the show I wish would have died, it was her. I liked KOTH a lot but started to waver towards the end and missed a lot of the final 2 or 3 seasons. I can trace my Peggy hate to 3 instances:

The first was during an episode for Bobby's birthday. Peggy made a big deal that she brought him his cake for 12 straight years and was disappointed she wouldn't get to any more. At the end of the episode, through some wacky situations, she brought him his cake in the middle of the street beneath a light pole that Dale's bug truck hit. Her hooting and hollering was extremely annoying given the emphasis she placed on it.

The second instance was during a boggle tournament or something else. Luanne had made a comment, after hearing Peggy talk about either boggle or teaching, saying "Hey! Maybe I can play boggle/teach too!" And Peggy laughed in her face! God I wanted to punch a hole through those glasses.

And the last was the thanksgiving episode with the stolen turkey. She was jealous her own son cooked better than her and stole the turkey to share with her hairdresser. After that episode, no more giving her a pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I also did enjoy the episode where Hank and the others actually call Peggy on her BS, at the country musical festival. But in that episode, she actually is in the right because Randy Travis has stolen her song.
It sucked though how the only time she gets called on it, she's right. Probably reinforced her opinion of herself some more. I can just imagine her typing away another one of her stupid columns

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl View Post
What Bill-centric episodes hinge on "Laugh at the LOSER!"? I think all of his episodes are well done with real depth and surprisingly touching. Like the one where he goes crazy because it's Christmas and Lenore is gone and he gets better when he realizes he's worth a "Dear John" letter and an explanation. Or when Hank gets fed up with all of Bill's problems and then finds out that he has Bill's name tattooed to his head and why he does.
There's the one where he dressed like Santa for months because some woman enjoyed how he brought some fun into her and her son's life during Christmas. Then the one where he uses all of his vacation and sick days to join a traveling singing show. And the one where he lets some punk teenager steal from him because he pretends that Bill was the father figure he needed in his life.

Not to mention the offhand comments/situations in other episodes about Hank needing to stay over at Bill's house during holidays to prevent him from killing himself, when he took Peggy's body cast and pretended she was married to him, closing the blinds and crying, and telling Bobby to do anything to win back his love or else he'll reget it for the rest of his life. It's sort of how Moe from the Simpsons went from a grouchy bartender to a suicidal depressed maniac
Old 03-19-2010, 03:58 PM
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Yeah I know there's a lot of episodes where we see Bill's pathetic life, but I never got the sense that they were cruel "Laugh at the loser! LAUGH!" episodes.
Old 03-19-2010, 04:17 PM
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Sure, the episode when Peggy inadvertently kidnaps the little Mexican girl was annoying, but there was so much hilarity in her getting off the hook because of her Spanish language inadequacy. I also like that she's good at Boggle. My answer is she's an arrogant, do-gooder moron, with some insecurity interspersed.

Favorite character by a mile: Dale Gribble
Old 03-19-2010, 04:28 PM
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There was at least one instance of Bill not being a loser; Peggy was employed as some pyramid scheme and got Bill to work for her, he got a ton of clients and made her a lot of money. She'd wanted to get an award or go to some meeting somewhere. So he was good at something.
Old 03-19-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBertha View Post
There was at least one instance of Bill not being a loser; Peggy was employed as some pyramid scheme and got Bill to work for her, he got a ton of clients and made her a lot of money. She'd wanted to get an award or go to some meeting somewhere. So he was good at something.
But he was still all pathetic and whiny.
Old 03-19-2010, 05:19 PM
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Yeah, but there have been quite a few episodes where Bill steps up and drops the loser schtick. There's the time he takes on the doctor who told him he'd wind up in a wheelchair. The flashbacks to him taking on a whole bar full of punks to save Hank. The Ann Richards episode. The one where he thinks he's been experimented on - sure, part of the joke is how badly he turned out, but when he has to bluff their way, in a tank, out of getting arrested, he makes good.

He's loyal. He's kind to Bobby. Bill is a good man with serious depression problems.
Old 03-19-2010, 05:26 PM
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There was also the episode where he returned to his high school football team to retake his touchdown record after it was broken in a fraudulent matter (a hotshot kid had tied his record, then allowed to score a ceremonial touchdown to break the record after he broke his leg). Bill was seen as a loser by the rest of the team, but he did power his way in to score that one touchdown.

He was also classy enough not to try to score any more after that, pointing out that the kid had tied his record legitimately.

All in all, it was a pretty good episode for Bill.

Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-19-2010 at 05:27 PM.
Old 03-19-2010, 05:28 PM
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I agree. I always hoped that Bill would get a good therapist and turn around a bit before the series ended.
Old 03-19-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by YogSosoth View Post
...There's the one where he dressed like Santa for months because some woman enjoyed how he brought some fun into her and her son's life during Christmas...And the one where he lets some punk teenager steal from him because he pretends that Bill was the father figure he needed in his life...
I think that was the same episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocCathode
I agree. I always hoped that Bill would get a good therapist and turn around a bit before the series ended.
I was dissappointed at the way his relationship with Rev Stroup ended. That would've really turned his life around.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:22 PM
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I was dissappointed at the way his relationship with Rev Stroup ended. That would've really turned his life around.
Agreed. Bill could have a pretty good life, but he does need someone to fill the giant gaping hole in his emotional life. Hes actually a pretty grea guy (if none too bright) when he feels loved.
Old 03-19-2010, 10:27 PM
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She's a great surrogate mother to Luanne up until she meets Lucky (sabotaging Lucky's GED studies was IMO the worst thing she does on the show), but after they're married, she's goes back to being good for her.
Even that's Peggy being a good surrogate mother...an unscrupulous one, but she's doing her best to keep Luanne from ruining her life by marrying a white trash loser. It's an awful thing to do to Lucky, but not an awful thing to do to Luanne.
Old 03-21-2010, 09:16 PM
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Arrogant moron...but I love her anyway. Where Bill's stupidity is just grating and embarrassing, Peggy's self-confidence and pettiness seldom fail to crack me up.

What I really love is that there are two King of the Hill threads on this board at the moment. Been watching the show a lot lately, and think it's great and deserves discussion.
Old 03-21-2010, 09:52 PM
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What I really love is that there are two King of the Hill threads on this board at the moment. Been watching the show a lot lately, and think it's great and deserves discussion.
The other one was derived from this one, but I agree. In fact (and I say this as a liberal) it is one of the few shows that pokes fun at the liberal progressive agenda.

I cannot think of another funny 'conservative' minded show.
Old 03-22-2010, 12:52 AM
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I just hope Adult Swim airs the 4 episodes that Fox didn't show.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:36 AM
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They are. They aired one last Sunday and this Sunday.
Old 03-22-2010, 03:09 AM
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So far, all I have seen are the episodes from the last season that aired on Fox. There were 4 episodes that Fox didn't air that I'm hoping AS got ahold of.
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