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Old 07-08-2011, 08:38 PM
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A Socially Conservative Economically Populist Party?

Would a political party that is economically speakign left (pro-social services, protectionist but also anti-immigrant) but socially conservative get a widespread following in the United States among the working class (both white and black).
Old 07-08-2011, 08:48 PM
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On an episode of 30 Rock, Liz Lemon's moron boyfriend is asked about his politics. He responds, "Social conservative, fiscal liberal."

I'm having a hard time imagining an individual coming to the positions you describe, never mind a widespread following.
Old 07-08-2011, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
On an episode of 30 Rock, Liz Lemon's moron boyfriend is asked about his politics. He responds, "Social conservative, fiscal liberal."

I'm having a hard time imagining an individual coming to the positions you describe, never mind a widespread following.
Why not? Its the political position of most blacks and a lot of working class whites.
Old 07-08-2011, 09:04 PM
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Anti-immigrant is "left" now?
Old 07-08-2011, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
Why not? Its the political position of most blacks and a lot of working class whites.
I meant what I said literally: I have a hard time imagining it. Because it seems absurd.

There might be people who see the world that way, but you'll have to work at it to convince me this could be a major trend. I don't personally recall running into this type of political stance much.

The only example I can think of (and it may not be a good one) was the opposition to gay marriage in California and Washington DC by some of the African American community. That seemed to be mostly religious types as I recall, so I'm not sure how it folds into the political position you're talking about.

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:38 PM
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The worst of both worlds. An idea truly stunning in the depth and scope of its complete and utter lack of any redeeming qualities.
Old 07-08-2011, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Anti-immigrant is "left" now?
Not "left" as in your average "progressive" vegan New Ager from San Francisco but yes it is in the interests of the working class in America to limit immigration (which is exactly what many labour unions in the 19th Century wanted)

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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
The worst of both worlds. An idea truly stunning in the depth and scope of its complete and utter lack of any redeeming qualities.
Of course if they were slightly more anti-immigrant they'd begin to resemble the BNP or France's National Front.

Inicdentally as a sidenote, in foreign policy I'd assume this party would be neo-isolationist, preferring not to intervene-be it Bosnia, Iraq, or Libya.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:02 PM
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Senator Byrd of West Virginia described himself as a fiscal liberal and social conservative. It seemed to work for him, if you call nearly six decades of being elected to Congress as "success."
Old 07-08-2011, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
I don't personally recall running into this type of political stance much.
It really is relatively rare IME. I have a friend who falls roughly into this category ( though more social moderate than full-blown social conservative ), but he's an outlier in many ways and he came to his views in a convoluted fashion. Also he isn't particularly anti-immigrant or isolationist.

I'd have to agree that such a party would probably not be pulling in big numbers in this country.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:08 PM
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Still, it's a party that likes high taxes and opposes sport fucking.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:12 PM
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Australia has the Democratic Labor Party. They don't do all that well.

Parties like you describe often end up as nationalist exercises, caught up in identity politics & stuck with enemies by dint of ethnicity.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:26 PM
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Apart from the anti-immigrant portion, yes, it would have something of a natural base among black and first-to-second-generation Americans. I've always thought that mix was a lot more natural than the current American alignment — after all, if you support the government having a larger role in the economy, why would you support it having a smaller role in society?

Actually, now that I think about it, the US arguably had that party (again, minus the anti-immigrant stuff) until the Civil Rights Movement, did it not? Or were the Democrats socially liberal before they were pro-civil rights?

On edit: it's also worth pointing out that the Catholic Church has always taking roughly that position (again, minus the anti-immigrant stuff). Such a party would stand a good chance of winning elections in a majority-Catholic country.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Senator Byrd of West Virginia described himself as a fiscal liberal and social conservative. It seemed to work for him, if you call nearly six decades of being elected to Congress as "success."
Well he supported abortion at least later in his career so I wouldn't call him a social conservative.

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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Still, it's a party that likes high taxes and opposes sport fucking.
"Sports fucking"?

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Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
Australia has the Democratic Labor Party. They don't do all that well.

Parties like you describe often end up as nationalist exercises, caught up in identity politics & stuck with enemies by dint of ethnicity.
On the other hand Christian Democrats (although foreign policy-wise more internationalist) fulfill much of the criteria. Not to mention that the National Front and other European nationalist parties. Indeed arguably communism in the current Chinese form or old Soviet form fulfills the criteria-they did not have exactly enlightened policy toward homosexuals.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:33 PM
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(ETA: A Catholic party might be inclined to drop the protectionist stuff, too — Catholicism does have a pretty substantial cosmopolitan twist to it.)
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:33 PM
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Mike Huckabee is close to what you describe. He never attracted much support outside of the very religious from the central states. The establishment Republicans hated him, and he attracted little to no support from Democrats, so no.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
"Sports fucking"?
No. Sport fucking. Singular. Means getting laid because fucking is fun. No intent to make a baby--in fact, proactively taking steps to prevent conception. No heavy emotional involvement. Just naked, sweaty, fun. Often accompanied by copious amounts of alcohol and/or other intoxicating substances. Ya meet a gal at a party or bar, chat her up, maybe dance with her a little, both of you get hammered, then you go somewhere and fuck like bunnies.

Last edited by Oakminster; 07-08-2011 at 10:37 PM.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:38 PM
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What about Alaska? Socially conservative, but they sure do love that socialist, wealth-redistributing Alaskan Oil Fund.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
No. Sport fucking. Singular. Means getting laid because fucking is fun. No intent to make a baby--in fact, proactively taking steps to prevent conception. No heavy emotional involvement. Just naked, sweaty, fun. Often accompanied by copious amounts of alcohol and/or other intoxicating substances. Ya meet a gal at a party or bar, chat her up, maybe dance with her a little, both of you get hammered, then you go somewhere and fuck like bunnies.
I don't think anybody wants to actually ban fornication, although there are many people morally opposed to it. Not to mention it may have bad side-effects (ie STDs for example or more unlikely guy or girl you pick up is some sort of Jeffrey Dahmer). In particularly AIDS-ridden countries, it may make sense for governments to discourage this.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:49 PM
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Governments need to stay the hell out of bedrooms. Long as everybody involved are consenting adults, it's none of the government's business.
Old 07-08-2011, 10:51 PM
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This POV is fairly common in the lower-middle class blue collar suburbs of Rust Belt cities. Heavily Catholic, and heavily unionized.
Old 07-08-2011, 11:08 PM
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Several recent threads have called attention to
people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/Beyond-Red-vs-Blue-The-Political-Typology.pdf
but it's worth yet another mention. Pew Research Center divided Americans into nine clusters statistically based on their political views. There is much insight to be gained by studying this report.

Perhaps the two groups among Pew's nine which come closest to OP's query might be New Coalition Democrats and Hard-Pressed Democrats. But neither fits well.

The New Coalition Demos:
Quote:
DEFINING VALUES: Generally supportive of government, but divided over expanding the social safety net. Reflecting their own diverse makeup, they are pro-immigrant. Socially conservative, about as many say homosexuality should be discouraged as say it should be accepted.
The Hard-Pressed Demos
Quote:
DEFINING VALUES: Critical of both business and government. View immigrants as an economic burden and a cultural threat. Supportive of environmental protection in general but concerned about the economic impact of environmental laws and regulations.
Thus, other posters seem to be correct when they say OP seeks voters who are a rather rare breed.
Old 07-08-2011, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
No. Sport fucking. Singular. Means getting laid because fucking is fun. No intent to make a baby--in fact, proactively taking steps to prevent conception. No heavy emotional involvement. Just naked, sweaty, fun. Often accompanied by copious amounts of alcohol and/or other intoxicating substances. Ya meet a gal at a party or bar, chat her up, maybe dance with her a little, both of you get hammered, then you go somewhere and fuck like bunnies.
Happened to me several times. Making an overall success rate of .1%
Old 07-08-2011, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
Why not? Its the political position of most blacks and a lot of working class whites.
Good luck on building a coalition between blacks and rednecks.
Old 07-08-2011, 11:37 PM
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:45 PM
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Better than the Indiana Surrealists, like Hoosier Dada....
Old 07-08-2011, 11:56 PM
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Would a political party that is economically speakign left (pro-social services, protectionist but also anti-immigrant) but socially conservative get a widespread following in the United States among the working class (both white and black).
Like others in this thread I'm having a hard time picturing such a party and how it would work. As another poster said up thread, it sounds like the worst of both worlds to me.

Who would the pro-social services be if they were socially conservative?? I guess I can see the protectionist sentiment as being mainstream, since an appalling number of Americans seem to have protectionist leanings (until they find out what it would cost them, of course). Also...when did anti-immigrant stances come from the left??

I don't see such a party getting wide traction in the US (or anywhere else). Now, the converse...socially liberal but economically conservative...THAT seems to have reasonable traction, though it's not a majority or populist stance even then.

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Old 07-09-2011, 12:04 AM
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To septimus, two comments:

First, the map is not the country. Splitting the American voting public up into little segments might be fun and reveal a few interesting things but I'm reluctant to take the project too seriously.

Secondly, political positions are heavily dependent on what parties support what positions. In part, the correlation of social and economic conservativism/liberalism happens precisely because the parties themselves are aligned that way, and people are influenced by their parties. The Michigan voting model (it's named after the university where it was created) actually supposes that party preference comes before substantive political positions; you identify with whichever party, and that party gives you cues on how to feel about political issues, and then you vote based off of your position on those issues. If no party exists to argue for social conservatism mixed with economic leftishness ("liberalism" isn't really the right word), people probably just won't follow that ideology.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:14 AM
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We already have this viewpoint in our politics, and it's a sizable chunk of the Republican coalition. In the midterms, the Republicans ran as defenders of Medicare, and the last time the Republicans were in control of all three branches, they passed one of the largest Medicare expansions ever. They did it, because that's what Republicans want. I was sort of kidding about the Alaskans, but when you can put someone who defends and expands a completely socialist program on your Presidential ticket, you can't then turn around and claim to be some market worshipper.
Old 07-09-2011, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by elmwood View Post
This POV is fairly common in the lower-middle class blue collar suburbs of Rust Belt cities. Heavily Catholic, and heavily unionized.
Yes, I think it's mostly blue-collar unionized workers that would be the target audience of such a movement. (I don't know if being Catholic has anything to do with it, though.) The OP also mentions African Americans, and I'd agree they'd likely support it in significant numbers. (And AFAICT they tend to be Protestant Christians.)

As a political philosophy it's not as uncommon or contradictory as people here are making it to be. In Canada we've got the NDP, the "socialist", left-wing party that's currently the official opposition, which has several distinct bases of support, one of which being unionized workers in industrial or mining towns. These people tend to be conservative, often wary of immigration due to the risk of losing jobs (also why they're against globalization and free trade), and in favour of greater protection for workers. There is a significant number of switch NDP-Conservative voters, which seems like anathema to urban left-wingers in places like Toronto, but is actually fairly understandable.

This said, I don't see how a political party based only on such a philosophy could be successful, especially in a country like the US where the political culture is driven by the two-party system, both parties being wide coalitions of interests. Right now the voters such a party would target are likely to be found in the Democratic party, and unless I'm mistaken it is in fact true that African Americans and unionized workers vote by and large for Democrats. I'll say any question asking whether a new party could get a wide base of support in the US can be safely answered with "no". I don't see anything right now that could topple the current two-party system, with Democrats and Republicans being the two major parties.
Old 07-09-2011, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by straight man View Post
First, the map is not the country. Splitting the American voting public up into little segments might be fun and reveal a few interesting things but I'm reluctant to take the project too seriously.
The Pew study of political typology was debated in a previous thread, and I don't want to repeat that here, but your comment makes me suspect you misunderstand their report. Geography has nothing to do with it. And they use statistical tools to derive the data's natural clusters, not any preconceptions.
Old 07-09-2011, 01:57 AM
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Better than the Indiana Surrealists, like Hoosier Dada....
It's not often you make me laugh but... damn.
Old 07-09-2011, 01:59 AM
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Better than the Indiana Surrealists, like Hoosier Dada....
I'm not normally of the "+1" persuasion, but damn, that was some funny shit, 'luci.
Old 07-09-2011, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The Pew study of political typology was debated in a previous thread, and I don't want to repeat that here, but your comment makes me suspect you misunderstand their report. Geography has nothing to do with it. And they use statistical tools to derive the data's natural clusters, not any preconceptions.
It's an expression in application, you can read "the map is not the country" as "the model is not the reality". And I get that they were looking for correlations in fact, I read the report back when it first came up on the SMDB. Fundamentally, though, I don't think it's entirely fair to suppose that the political preferences of Americans under the current party system are reflective of what they would be with different party allignments. People will tend to move toward existing party positions, particularly in a badly polarized political system.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Good luck on building a coalition between blacks and rednecks.
From a European perspective it seems like a very good idea. I mean, such a nationalistic party could not possibly be accused of being supporters of racism. We all know that racism is the worst thing in the whole history of mankind; therefore a party with the slightest farfetched allegations of racism has no future. I suggest the party should not have a traditional "one man" leadership, a better option would be a system with two party spokespersons, always one white and one black. (Just like the Green Party in Sweden, but in their case it is a male and a female as a promotion of gendermandering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_%28Sweden%29 )
Old 07-09-2011, 07:05 AM
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Isn't that the neo-conservative republicans? Trying to prevent people from doing what they want in their bedrooms, check. Freely spending borrowed money, check.
Old 07-09-2011, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
Would a political party that is economically speakign left (pro-social services, protectionist but also anti-immigrant) but socially conservative get a widespread following in the United States among the working class (both white and black).
Probably not. Pat Buchanan already tried it -- his wing of the old Reform Party became the America First Party, which still exists and is pretty much exactly what you're describing, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The more religious-conservative Constitution Party is a much bigger deal -- one of the "Big Three" third parties in the U.S. (together with the Libertarians and the Greens).
Old 07-09-2011, 09:14 AM
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Well he supported abortion at least later in his career so I wouldn't call him a social conservative.
Yeah, and he wasn't Scottish, either.
Old 07-09-2011, 09:19 AM
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It's an impossible combination -- politicized social conservatism requires Big Government; Big Government requires either tax-and-spend or borrow-and-spend. QED.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Good luck on building a coalition between blacks and rednecks.
Another point on which the proposed combination collapses. The agenda "give me other people's money" and "arrest people who offend me" breaks down because there are too many different "me"s for whom the demands are mutually incompatible.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:36 AM
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From a European perspective it seems like a very good idea. I mean, such a nationalistic party could not possibly be accused of being supporters of racism.
That is why it can't exist. The kinds of American "nationalists" under discussion here are mostly white and intolerant. (Hint: There would be no Minutemen if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada.)
Old 07-09-2011, 11:09 AM
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It's an impossible combination -- politicized social conservatism requires Big Government; Big Government requires either tax-and-spend or borrow-and-spend. QED.
No, that's why it makes sense, and the marriage of capitalism and bible thumping doesn't.

You get your Big Government types all under one tent. The government will keep Jesus in the classrooms, gays in the closet, bombers over Iran, workers filling potholes by day while other workers dig potholes by night, imports out, immigrants out, unions for everyone, with subsidized housing and daycare and healthcare to support good working families.

Of course this populist party might seem superficially attractive to blacks and latinos. But since the party's base will be working class whites, and will serve their interests. And the white working class might have some solidarity with each other, but they see blacks and immigrants as competition from the bottom. So, they like the idea of welfare and social services for poor whites, but not for poor blacks.

On the other hand, Ayn Rand and Jesus don't mix very well. Rand loved cities and hated the country, she loved industrialists and hated unionized workers, she loved self-interest and despised religion, she loved the new and hated the old, she loved factories and laboratories and hated farms and small towns. Which is why the Tea Party which claims to love both Rand and Jesus is a doomed schizophrenic monstrosity.
Old 07-09-2011, 11:37 AM
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That is why it can't exist. The kinds of American "nationalists" under discussion here are mostly white and intolerant. (Hint: There would be no Minutemen if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada.)
You exaggerate. It's all about ordinary blue collar workers who have nothing to gain from wage dumping and benefit scroungers. You demonize them because you want the NWO to rule the waves just like the Brits ones did.
Old 07-09-2011, 11:52 AM
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On the other hand, Ayn Rand and Jesus don't mix very well. Rand loved cities and hated the country, she loved industrialists and hated unionized workers, she loved self-interest and despised religion, she loved the new and hated the old, she loved factories and laboratories and hated farms and small towns. Which is why the Tea Party which claims to love both Rand and Jesus is a doomed schizophrenic monstrosity.
What do cities vs. farms have anything to do with Jesus?

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Old 07-09-2011, 11:56 AM
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That is why it can't exist. The kinds of American "nationalists" under discussion here are mostly white and intolerant. (Hint: There would be no Minutemen if the illegal-immigration pressure were coming from Canada.)
No, for example the Minutemen has some Hispanic members and I don't think they care whether the illegal happens to be of blue-blooded Castillian descent or a Zapotec Indian. Not to mention the Minutemen has helped rescue many illegal immigrants lost in the desert.
Old 07-09-2011, 12:31 PM
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What do cities vs. farms have anything to do with Jesus?
Because according to the right-wing populists, real Americans live on farms and in small towns as Jesus intended, not big cities with negroes and homosexuals and foreigners.
Old 07-09-2011, 01:03 PM
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These are what I call "union Democrats," and they're quite common in the Midwest, union affiliation or no. They believe in big government programs that benefit the poor and middle class, they support unions, they want higher taxes on the rich, they don't trust big business. They support universal healthcare. They don't want their Social Security or Medicare touched. But they also support gun rights, don't give a crap about gay rights, lean pro-life, although they don't typically think or talk much about abortion until they actually need one; they tell racist jokes, quietly bitch about the blacks and Mexicans moving into their neighborhoods. They support immigration reform, as long as the immigrants don't take their jobs or move onto their block. Privately they have no problem with porn, although publically they wink and nod while saying it's obscene. They support welfare and food stamps, as they or a family member have probably at one point used them. But they do support tougher restrictions on welfare to stop abuses done by "system gamers." They consider themselves Christian, and attend church between 4 times a year and once a week. They're pro military, consider themselves patriotic Americans. They're pretty solidly blue collar. They hate Republicans, they mock bleeding heart progressives and liberals. They almost always vote Democratic, when they bother to vote.

Growing up in southeast Michigan, I know dozens of people like this. I'd say they're pretty socially conservative and solidly fiscally liberal.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 07-09-2011 at 01:04 PM.
Old 07-09-2011, 01:14 PM
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By socially conservative do you mean;

Anti abortion?

Anti immigration?

Anti gay marriage?

Anti inter racial marriage?

Anti no fault divorce?

Christian based morality, reflected in the law?

Prayer in schools?

Anti union?

Anti birth control education?

You need to answer these questions so we know what you mean by 'Socially' conservative. It would really help us all understand what you're referring to when you use this phrase.
Old 07-09-2011, 02:49 PM
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That is why it can't exist. The kinds of American "nationalists" under discussion here are mostly white and intolerant.
As you know, Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being intolerant. Blacks can be pro-Blacks without being intolerant. But with Whites, it's different. White people cannot be pro-White without being intolerant to everybody else. Please explain why.
Old 07-09-2011, 03:00 PM
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The worst of both worlds. An idea truly stunning in the depth and scope of its complete and utter lack of any redeeming qualities.
Yes. On the nolan chart this person would score in the authoritarian/statist category. Its the opposite of Libertarians who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
Old 07-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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Would a political party that is economically speakign left (pro-social services, protectionist but also anti-immigrant) but socially conservative get a widespread following in the United States among the working class (both white and black).
I'd like to help you son, but you're too young to vote.
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