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#1
Old 01-24-2013, 02:25 PM
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Claims of "Ritual Abuse". Whats the reason?

I recently downloaded a book on Kindle (it was free or I wouldn't have wasted my money) called Rabbithole. It is supposed to be about the horrible Satanic Ritual Abuse that a man went through. By the time I got to the second chapter I was thinking "This can't be true". So I looked some stuff up online. I stumbled into a whole debate between the author of that book, another book, some people on Amazon and people on another board who say it doesn't exist.

Let me say now, I don't buy it, it just seems all too crazy. Kids being killed and their blood drained and drank, the boy was supposed to be "the anti-christ", a huge portion of the city of Omaha was supposed to be buying and selling kids and its supposed to go "all the way to the White House" (in the 80's not now). Thats really as far as I got before I looked into it before I started my online search.

So I guess my question is this. Why are these people making things like this up? I can't understand why anyone would want to do that. The man who wrote the book has a blog, and all kinds of stuff. The newest things hes on are that A) The guy who co-founded Reditt was going to expose abuse such as this at MIT and B) The guy in the UK who abused all those people was in a satanic cult.

Is there just something wrong with these people? Attention? Do they really think it happened or do they know its all BS?
#2
Old 01-24-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Steener122 View Post
So I guess my question is this. Why are these people making things like this up?
Money; attention; mental illness.
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Is there just something wrong with these people?
Yes.
Quote:
Attention?
Yes.
Quote:
Do they really think it happened or do they know its all BS?
Some of each, I suspect, although I'd wager that a majority of them are somewhere in between, having deliberately convinced themselves that it's true.

Most of us are kind of boring people. You wouldn't really want to read about my life, unless I were a good enough writer to find the hilarity and poignancy in everyday events. But if you're at the center of a Satanic conspiracy, suddenly you just got interesting. Some people are willing to sacrifice their integrity and their identity in order to become interesting.
#3
Old 01-24-2013, 02:33 PM
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1. Attention.
2. Get to write books and make money.
3. Law enforcement officials: power.
4. Mental Health professionals: Money and Power.
#4
Old 01-24-2013, 02:35 PM
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Some were suggestible people who had false memories* due to hypnosis; the "Satanic abuse" frenzy was heavily interwoven with the "repressed memories of child abuse retrieved by hypnosis" frenzy; no doubt others were crazy without external help. As for why? It got attention seekers attention, it fulfilled the need many Christians have to feel persecuted, I'm sure plenty of people made money off it, and there's always conspiracy theory crazies out there.

*While last I heard there's no evidence that repressed memories even exist, there's plenty of evidence that false memories exist.

Last edited by Der Trihs; 01-24-2013 at 02:36 PM.
#5
Old 01-24-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
*While last I heard there's no evidence that repressed memories even exist
Good grief, I've told you about that evidence at least half a dozen times, and each time you claim that you've never heard of it.
#6
Old 01-24-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Good grief, I've told you about that evidence at least half a dozen times, and each time you claim that you've never heard of it.
#7
Old 01-24-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Some were suggestible people who had false memories* due to hypnosis; the "Satanic abuse" frenzy was heavily interwoven with the "repressed memories of child abuse retrieved by hypnosis" frenzy; no doubt others were crazy without external help. As for why? It got attention seekers attention, it fulfilled the need many Christians have to feel persecuted, I'm sure plenty of people made money off it, and there's always conspiracy theory crazies out there.

*While last I heard there's no evidence that repressed memories even exist, there's plenty of evidence that false memories exist.
Pretty much this. THe whole repressed memories thing was complete bullshit and was used to launch a number of witch hunts which ruined a lot of lives in the process, and all from a complete psudo-scientific basis. If anything, memories of abuse aren't repressed but overly focused on by those who experience it...the memories magnified, not wiped out and repressed. And it's ridiculously easy to implant false memories that, in the right circumstance become 'real' to the person they are being implanted into. This has been shown over and over again.
#8
Old 01-24-2013, 03:10 PM
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Andrew Vachss's False Allegations covers this very topic. For the record, Vachss is an attorney who handles children accused of committing sexual abuse, most all of whom have been abused. He knows his topic, and he agrees it's bullshit.
#9
Old 01-24-2013, 03:31 PM
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If you want a good debunking of the whole Satanic Ritual Abuse scare, I suggest reading Jeffrey S. Victor's book Satanic Panic. It was published in 1993, but you might find it in a good public library. It compares the SRA scare to the Salem Witch Trials. Scary how such a situation could occur in modern times.

I remember when this panic happened. Geraldo Rivera had some idiot speaking in silhouette behind a screen swearing up and down that Satanists were infiltrating day care centers for supplies of sacrificial victims and making money by filming child porn.

Letterman had Oprah on his show and since she was doing her own programs about it, he asked her sarcastically, "...if this craze is sweeping the country?" Oprah fell back on the old saw about "If only one child is saved, it would be worth it." Letterman clammed up immediately.

I can only say, "Well Oprah, not a single child was saved, and a lot of innocent people went to jail. So no, it wasn't worth it."

I remember reading, and I don't know if it was in Victor's book, that part of the cause that drove the panic was a public expression of the guilt of working mothers, leaving their kids in day care instead of being stay at home moms. It was an interesting theory.
#10
Old 01-24-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Good grief, I've told you about that evidence at least half a dozen times, and each time you claim that you've never heard of it.
You win the thread. Congratulations.
#11
Old 01-24-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
You win the thread. Congratulations.
Yeah-It was funny the last six times he posted that, too.
#12
Old 01-24-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Two Many Cats View Post
If you want a good debunking of the whole Satanic Ritual Abuse scare, I suggest reading Jeffrey S. Victor's book Satanic Panic. It was published in 1993, but you might find it in a good public library. It compares the SRA scare to the Salem Witch Trials. Scary how such a situation could occur in modern times.

I remember when this panic happened. Geraldo Rivera had some idiot speaking in silhouette behind a screen swearing up and down that Satanists were infiltrating day care centers for supplies of sacrificial victims and making money by filming child porn.

Letterman had Oprah on his show and since she was doing her own programs about it, he asked her sarcastically, "...if this craze is sweeping the country?" Oprah fell back on the old saw about "If only one child is saved, it would be worth it." Letterman clammed up immediately.

I can only say, "Well Oprah, not a single child was saved, and a lot of innocent people went to jail. So no, it wasn't worth it."

I remember reading, and I don't know if it was in Victor's book, that part of the cause that drove the panic was a public expression of the guilt of working mothers, leaving their kids in day care instead of being stay at home moms. It was an interesting theory.
Oooh. Sounds like a trip to the library may be in order. I've yet to try to read the rest of "Rabbit Hole" although I've read more of him fighting with reviewers of his book to don't totally love it. I guess if I really want to know about it though I'll have to suck it up and read it, then go find this book you've told me about.
#13
Old 01-24-2013, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Some were suggestible people who had false memories* due to hypnosis; the "Satanic abuse" frenzy was heavily interwoven with the "repressed memories of child abuse retrieved by hypnosis" frenzy; no doubt others were crazy without external help. As for why? It got attention seekers attention, it fulfilled the need many Christians have to feel persecuted, I'm sure plenty of people made money off it, and there's always conspiracy theory crazies out there.

*While last I heard there's no evidence that repressed memories even exist, there's plenty of evidence that false memories exist.
Also, IMO that also reflects an element of carryover from the Cult scare injected into the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare. IIRC as "Deprogramming" started to become discredited, "Recovered Memory" became a more mainstream big thing.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 01-24-2013 at 06:07 PM.
#14
Old 01-24-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Yeah-It was funny the last six times he posted that, too.
Gosh, I thought that was the first time, but now your post is making me remember...didn't I post it before? Yeah, I think I did.
#15
Old 01-24-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Yeah-It was funny the last six times he posted that, too.
That's not how I remember it.
#16
Old 01-24-2013, 07:31 PM
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The Satanic Ritual Abuse scare was not spontaneous -- fundies actually pushed it, through pious fraud when necessary:

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Promotion and fraud

The panic was promoted heavily by Christian fundamentalists, particularly author Mike Warnke and his fraudulent "autobiography" The Satan Seller, Rebecca Brown and her equally fraudulent He Came To Set the Captives Free, Lauren Stratford and her gory (and fraudulent) book Satan's Underground, radio talk show host Bob Larson, book writer Hal Lindsey, and comic writer Jack Chick. An early book that gave impetus to the spread of this myth was Michelle Remembers by Michelle Smith in 1980. This book was proven to be a hoax (noticing a pattern?), but the widespread belief continued in multigenerational Satanic cults ritually abusing children. John Todd and Lauren Stratford also claimed to have been born into such multigenerational Satanist families, with Stratford claiming particularly horrific abuse, but both their testimonies were also found to be complete fabrications. The spread of the hoax continued into the 1990s with two Bob Larson novels, Dead Air and Abaddon, which were at least published as fiction but nonetheless tapped into the popularity of this belief among evangelical Christians.

False memories

The ritual abuse movement was intimately linked to recovered memory and multiple personality, two borderline theories within psychology. Significantly, almost no alleged SRA survivors remembered they had been abused until the intervention of therapists, concerned parents, or police interrogators. This eventually led psychologists to understand that the memories of abuse were being created, not recovered, by therapists. One woman remembered abuse happening to her before she was one year old though memories from before the age of three are rare and memories from before the age of one are are unknown. [1]
#17
Old 01-24-2013, 07:36 PM
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See also:

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Stereotypical characteristics of Satanists and Satanism

Evangelicals and the police and prosecutors that they influence usually believe that the network(s) of Satan worshipers are characterized by the following:
* There are families of devil worshippers, and they tend to be multigenerational.
* Teenagers are enticed to join Satanic cults.
* Human sacrifice.
* Disappearing pets are used for animal sacrifice.
* Ritual child abuse.
* Satanist networks are part of a broader conspiracy, e.g. the Illuminati.
* Wiccans and other neopagans are Satanic in nature.
* Wiccan symbols such as the pentagram are signs of Satanic activity. Some Christian books on Satanism (and materials provided to law enforcement) included the peace symbol and the anarchy symbol in their lists of "Satanic symbols" to watch out for. Warning! There are pentagrams in the American flag and in the EU flag.
* Some parts of popular culture are functioning as recruiting tools for Satanism, including heavy metal music and the game Dungeons and Dragons.
* Halloween is a Satanic holiday; urban legends and scares over poisoned candy were claimed to be the work of Satanic cults.
* Some towns, agencies, or even major corporations (i.e. Procter & Gamble) are secretly under the control of Satanists.
* Satanist "infiltration" of the military.
* Washington, D.C. is infested with Satanic symbols designed into the city.
* Atheists are really satanists.
#18
Old 01-24-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
The Satanic Ritual Abuse scare was not spontaneous -- fundies actually pushed it, through pious fraud when necessary:
The actual title of Pazder's book should have been called "Michelle Remembers BULLSHIT!" As for Rebecca Brown "M.D." I recall seeing that harpy on Geraldo spouting her nonsense. Since I had read her first book, it was obvious to me that Geraldo had NOT! If he had (or if I myself had been in that audience when that episode was taped) then this fake "doctor" would have been confronted over all the BULL that she propagated! As for the woman in silhouette behind the screen, that was "Elaine" who was allegedly the "high priestess and bride of Satan" who met with the Pope (she never mentions which one) as well as many heads of state. If you follow the actual story, "Dr." Rebecca Brown was very abusive to "Elaine" and her mentally handicapped daughter. Elaine herself died not too many years ago. One thing I do wonder about: it appears that the McMartin Pre School Trial should NEVER have occurred. Did any of the McMartin family or school administrators or teachers ever sue the prosecutors and accusers for defamation of character?
#19
Old 01-25-2013, 08:32 AM
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Weird thing about Warnke jumping on the Ritual Abuse bandwagon- Not one word about it in his autobiography THE SATAN SELLER. So he was not a primary source for any SRA stories, but boy once the wagon got rolling, he hopped right on.

One of my dubious-prized possessions is an autographed copy of TSS I had him sign about a decade before he was exposed.
#20
Old 01-25-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Hottius Maximus View Post
One thing I do wonder about: it appears that the McMartin Pre School Trial should NEVER have occurred.
Note that prosecutors in Boston were still fighting to keep the Amiraults in prison as recently as the late '90s and early 2000s.
#21
Old 01-25-2013, 12:25 PM
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I had completely forgotten about Warnke. My youth group went to see him speak, probably '78 or '79. I remember that at the age of 16 his stories struck me as really over the top with the Satanic elements and his "comedy" being kind of hateful. A very self aggrandizing jerk basically. Not having paid much attention to his ilk in the last 25 years I must say it is heartening to see he got busted by his peers for his bullshit.
#22
Old 01-25-2013, 12:33 PM
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The need for evil enemies has created a lot of suffering in human history. This is just a wacky side chapter in this endless tome.
#23
Old 01-26-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
Note that prosecutors in Boston were still fighting to keep the Amiraults in prison as recently as the late '90s and early 2000s.
Your link talks about someone named Gerard Amirault. I find it odd that the McMartin Pre-school staff didn't fight back. I certainly would have since it sounds like a dreadful injustice was visited upon them.
#24
Old 01-26-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
The need for evil enemies has created a lot of suffering in human history.
Of course. Who wants to believe he's capable of being a complete TIT without some help?
#25
Old 01-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hottius Maximus View Post
Your link talks about someone named Gerard Amirault. I find it odd that the McMartin Pre-school staff didn't fight back. I certainly would have since it sounds like a dreadful injustice was visited upon them.
They did fight back, but there was a belief that gigantic satanic groups were all over the damn place, and any defense was vastly overwhelmed by the mass hysteria going on at the time.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-26-2013 at 03:36 PM.
#26
Old 01-26-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
Note that prosecutors in Boston were still fighting to keep the Amiraults in prison as recently as the late '90s and early 2000s.
One of the reasons I did not lament that Scott Brown beat Martha Coakley, who was a prosecutor who insisted in having Amirault serve full term regardless of the facts even after the parole board had unanimously recommended a commutation (not even a pardon!). "See how we're tough on crime! Think of The Children!!"

Last edited by JRDelirious; 01-26-2013 at 05:49 PM.
#27
Old 01-26-2013, 06:03 PM
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I just finished reading Remembering Satan, which is about this case. I couldn't get over how gullible the law enforcement officers were -- including the ones accused. One of the daughters claimed her parents were part of a coven that ritually sacrificed hundreds of babies, and an investigator explained the lack of any physical evidence to support this claim by stating the area's acidic soil completely broke down the remains. Seriously??!
#28
Old 01-26-2013, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JerrySTL View Post
1. Attention.
2. Get to write books and make money.
3. Law enforcement officials: power.
4. Mental Health professionals: Money and Power.
1. Attention.
Do you have any idea or recollection of how your friends and relatives, not to mention acquaintances, respond to talk about traumatic events? People avoid talking about trauma, especially if the nature of that trauma challenges their worldview.

Look at how this forum is talking about David Shurter. Look at how people are attacking Jenny Hill on Amazon.com, and other survivors who've come forward with their stories, and RA in general, do you think they receive any better treatment from people in their day to day lives?

Unless the entire lot of self-identified survivors can also be diagnosed with some sort of disorder of extreme masochism, then your point is ridiculous. Speaking out publicly about RA brings ridicule, ostracism, negative impacts on career and personal relationships. If you want to make an instant pariah of yourself, claim to be a survivor of ritual abuse.


2., 3., 4. No one ever got rich off of publishing books about or treating survivors of ritual abuse. Conversely, Child trafficking and child pornography are multibillion dollar businesses. Do a simple google search on child porn and you'll find that most cases involve perpetrators in all strata of society, all the way up to people with high clearance in the pentagon, google project flicker. No matter the trappings, the costumes, or whatever organizing principle perpetrators use to rationalize their behavior, and how these are overblown by the media in each case, what's at the core of RA claims is organized crime. Law enforcement has utterly failed to address it, to an even greater extent than they failed to contend with the mafia for half a century.

In other words, your arguments are illogical and misinformed.

The reason stories of RA keep surfacing, even in this climate of instant denial, is because they are based in real phenomena. The stories will keep surfacing until and unless this society and its institutions begin to adequately address child torture and exploitation as components of organized crime in the private sphere.
#29
Old 01-26-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Califlower View Post
1. Attention.
Do you have any idea or recollection of how your friends and relatives, not to mention acquaintances, respond to talk about traumatic events? People avoid talking about trauma, especially if the nature of that trauma challenges their worldview.

Look at how this forum is talking about David Shurter. Look at how people are attacking Jenny Hill on Amazon.com, and other survivors who've come forward with their stories, and RA in general, do you think they receive any better treatment from people in their day to day lives?

Unless the entire lot of self-identified survivors can also be diagnosed with some sort of disorder of extreme masochism, then your point is ridiculous. Speaking out publicly about RA brings ridicule, ostracism, negative impacts on career and personal relationships. If you want to make an instant pariah of yourself, claim to be a survivor of ritual abuse.


2., 3., 4. No one ever got rich off of publishing books about or treating survivors of ritual abuse. Conversely, Child trafficking and child pornography are multibillion dollar businesses. Do a simple google search on child porn and you'll find that most cases involve perpetrators in all strata of society, all the way up to people with high clearance in the pentagon, google project flicker. No matter the trappings, the costumes, or whatever organizing principle perpetrators use to rationalize their behavior, and how these are overblown by the media in each case, what's at the core of RA claims is organized crime. Law enforcement has utterly failed to address it, to an even greater extent than they failed to contend with the mafia for half a century.

In other words, your arguments are illogical and misinformed.

The reason stories of RA keep surfacing, even in this climate of instant denial, is because they are based in real phenomena. The stories will keep surfacing until and unless this society and its institutions begin to adequately address child torture and exploitation as components of organized crime in the private sphere.
Show me your best evidence that so-called "ritual abuse" occurred in any of the stories mentioned in this thread. Where are the secret rooms? Where are the hot air balloons and elephants? Where are the wounds from the butcher knifes shoved into the asses of little children? Where is the actual evidence that the stories coerced from little children after hours of interrogation, prodding and extremely dubious hypnotic techniques are true?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-26-2013 at 06:20 PM.
#30
Old 01-26-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Califlower View Post
The reason stories of RA keep surfacing, even in this climate of instant denial, is because they are based in real phenomena.
Like Satan, and magic tunnels accessed through toilets, and enormous knives that are plunged into children without leaving injury. Real phenomena like that.

There is plenty of real child abuse, that's for darn sure. But none of it is conducted by organized covens of Satan-worshippers, because neither Satan nor his worshippers exist or ever have existed.
#31
Old 01-27-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
They did fight back, but there was a belief that gigantic satanic groups were all over the damn place, and any defense was vastly overwhelmed by the mass hysteria going on at the time.
There was also the little matter of insurance claims-the parents who bought into this nonsense accepted millions in insurance payouts-so they liked the money too.
Which makes me wonder how many claims of sexual abuse (against scoutmasters, priests, teachers and coaches) were in fact motivated by large sums of money, paid out in compensation.
#32
Old 01-27-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Califlower View Post
2., 3., 4. No one ever got rich off of publishing books about or treating survivors of ritual abuse. Conversely, Child trafficking and child pornography are multibillion dollar businesses. Do a simple google search on child porn and you'll find that most cases involve perpetrators in all strata of society, all the way up to people with high clearance in the pentagon, google project flicker. No matter the trappings, the costumes, or whatever organizing principle perpetrators use to rationalize their behavior, and how these are overblown by the media in each case, what's at the core of RA claims is organized crime. Law enforcement has utterly failed to address it, to an even greater extent than they failed to contend with the mafia for half a century.
Of course sexual exploitation of children occurs and some profit from it. What has any of that to do with Satanic ritual? Never attribute to religion that which can be adequately explained by the profit motive.
#33
Old 01-27-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Condescending Robot View Post
There is plenty of real child abuse, that's for darn sure. But none of it is conducted by organized covens of Satan-worshippers, because neither Satan nor his worshippers exist or ever have existed.
Oh, there are Satan worshipers. But most of them don't actually believe in Satan as a being, "Satan" is just the pet name they give their own egos. As for ritual abuse of children, the LaVeyan Church of Satan's "Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth" include, "5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal," and "9. Do not harm little children."

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 01-27-2013 at 08:01 PM.
#34
Old 01-28-2013, 08:08 AM
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There's a book called "Painted Black" that spins all sorts of crazy tales about Satanic abuse, including stating that the Atlanta child killings were a bunch of white Satanists sacrificing black ghetto kids, and did not stop when Wayne Williams was in prison (total bullshit). Also the author suggests that Sharon Tate's murder might maybe have been orchestrated by her husband Roman Palanski in exchange for fame and fortune, a la Rosemary's Baby.
#35
Old 01-31-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
There was also the little matter of insurance claims-the parents who bought into this nonsense accepted millions in insurance payouts-so they liked the money too.
Which makes me wonder how many claims of sexual abuse (against scoutmasters, priests, teachers and coaches) were in fact motivated by large sums of money, paid out in compensation.
My guess would be that in most such cases the money might be some incentive to speak out, but not sufficient incentive to make the whole thing up.
#36
Old 02-02-2013, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Califlower View Post
The reason stories of RA keep surfacing, even in this climate of instant denial, is because they are based in real phenomena.
No, they are based on the raving paranoia of severely deluded people and the calculated fraud by those who seek power through exploiting fear. It's not any different from the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials and McCarthyism.
#37
Old 02-02-2013, 12:51 AM
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Is post #28 for real? Or is it a parody of how those nutters want everyone to believe that's how things really happened? Sheesh. Anyway, I came in to mention Warnke. He was a huge hit in my youth group in the 80s and I read everything he put out. When I fell away from the church, I never really have him any further thought. So, it was interesting to look him up in the early 2000s and found out he was busted for his bullshit. I was completely not surprised, nor that he's continued on in the Christian scene and has always been totally unrepentant. Nothing that he does, even if he still pretended to be a satanist "high priest," should illicit shock. The whole lot of 'em are douches.
#38
Old 02-02-2013, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
*While last I heard there's no evidence that repressed memories even exist, there's plenty of evidence that false memories exist.
Is this correct? Are there no verified accounts of repressed memories coming to light that are true?
#39
Old 02-02-2013, 07:37 AM
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No, they are based on the raving paranoia of severely deluded people and the calculated fraud by those who seek power through exploiting fear. It's not any different from the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials and McCarthyism.
You are right-if you read the story of the "Fells Acre" preschool trial, the whole thing reads like a rerun of the Salem Witch trials. The people who ran the daycare center were accused of taking the kids to a "magic room" where they were raped and tortured. There was NO evidence presented at all of this-just the testimony of children who were brainwashed into saying what the prosecution wanted them to say. The parents of the "victims" did accept large cash settlements though-apparently, that was enough to sway them. The lead prosecutor of the case is now the MA AG-oddly, she doesn't like to talk about the case..I wonder why?
#40
Old 02-02-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by needscoffee View Post
Is this correct? Are there no verified accounts of repressed memories coming to light that are true?
Wiki sez, "According to the American Psychological Association, it is not currently possible to distinguish a true repressed memory from a false one without corroborating evidence.[1]"
#41
Old 02-02-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faithfool View Post
Is post #28 for real? Or is it a parody of how those nutters want everyone to believe that's how things really happened?
It is significant either way, that that is the only post Califlower ever has made on the SDMB.
#42
Old 02-02-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
It is significant either way, that that is the only post Califlower ever has made on the SDMB.
It was such a horrifying experience that Califlower repressed the memory of ever having been here.
#43
Old 02-02-2013, 12:20 PM
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I see that RationalWiki was pointed to already, good summary and links there as usual.

Other skeptical sites also reported on that panic:

http://skepdic.com/satanrit.html
Quote:
If there are thousands of baseless accusations, how do they originate? Most of them are said to originate with children. Since there is a widespread belief that children wouldn't make up stories of eating other children or being forced to have sex with giraffes after flying in an airplane while they were supposed to be in day care, the stories are often taken at face value by naive prosecutors, therapists, police officers, and parents. Yet, the researchers found that children are unlikely to invent stories of satanic ritual abuse on their own. They get lots of help from therapists, district attorneys, police investigators, and parents. There is ample evidence that therapists and law enforcement personnel encourage and reward children for accepting the suggestions of bizarre abusive behavior. They also discourage truth by refusing to accept no for an answer and forcing children to undergo interrogations until the interrogator gets what he or she is after.

One of the more pernicious consequences of the SRA witch-hunts was that many cases involving accusations of child abuse slipped beneath the media's radar. For example, while the McMartin preschool case in Los Angeles received extensive national media attention, a much more extensive witch-hunt in Bakersfield, California, went virtually unnoticed. In the 1980s, the office of District Attorney Ed Jagels prosecuted 46 people in eight alleged molestation rings. Twenty-two of thirty convictions were later reversed, including that of Jeffrey Modahl. Eight had the charges dropped and eight plea-bargained to keep them from doing time in prison. One of those convicted died in prison. The rest served out their sentences.* The last of the accused, John Stoll, served 20 years in prison before his conviction was overturned in May 2004.
#44
Old 03-26-2014, 08:28 PM
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Let me apologize for reviving this zombie. It originally appeared at the time I was having two operations to repair (or attempt to repair) a detached retina and never saw it. I was originally going to start a thread asking what is the status of repressed memories. But the thread pretty much answered the question. But I am not sure it completely answered it because this Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Freyd shows that Jennifer Freyd is a highly respeced psychologist at U. Oregon a major part of whose entire research career has been based on the reality of recovered memories. Can anyone explain that?

Full disclosure: I am a close friend of her parents and have been au courant on the whole story since 1991. I simply cannot believe her accusations (which came about during hypnosis) are real.
#45
Old 03-26-2014, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
Jennifer Freyd is a highly respeced psychologist at U. Oregon a major part of whose entire research career has been based on the reality of recovered memories. Can anyone explain that?.
Let me try: "She's wrong." What do I win?

At this point, the evidence is very strong that "satanic ritual abuse" in general never happened at all, and that "recovered" memory via hypnosis never actually recovers memories that can't otherwise be recalled, and has a high probability of creating false ones. The burden of evidence is on those who wish to claim otherwise at this point. Being wrong about something (even in your field) doesn't mean you can't be highly respected in that field.

Last edited by TimeWinder; 03-26-2014 at 08:37 PM.
#46
Old 03-27-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Let me try: "She's wrong." What do I win?

At this point, the evidence is very strong that "satanic ritual abuse" in general never happened at all, and that "recovered" memory via hypnosis never actually recovers memories that can't otherwise be recalled, and has a high probability of creating false ones. The burden of evidence is on those who wish to claim otherwise at this point. Being wrong about something (even in your field) doesn't mean you can't be highly respected in that field.
True enough, but her reputation is mainly based on her claims on recovered memory. It makes me wonder about the status of psychology as a science. I would love to hear from a psychologist.
#47
Old 03-27-2014, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
But I am not sure it completely answered it because this Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Freyd shows that Jennifer Freyd is a highly respeced psychologist at U. Oregon a major part of whose entire research career has been based on the reality of recovered memories. Can anyone explain that?
Quite easily.

If you look at the history of that article (easy View history link at the top) you'll see relatively few people overall have edited it.

One of the most frequent editors (and the most recent right now) is someone calling him/herself Dingbatty. Clicking the contribs link next to that name on the history page shows the editing history of that editor across all of Wikipedia. On that page you can click the diff link next to each entry in the list to see the changes made in that edit. Literally all of the edits that person has made to Wikipedia over several years have been to promote Jennifer Freyd in various ways, either directly to her article or by adding links to papers she wrote which are hosted on her personal faculty page at the University of Oregon to other articles. We can speculate about who that editor is, and I think the obvious answer is probably correct in this case.

While others who edited that article aren't quite so blatant, there are others whose editing history, once examined, show similar bias. Jack-A-Roe, for example, is a name I recognize as someone who is clearly out to promote the idea that recovered memories and Satanic Ritual Abuse are completely real.

Wikipedia is open to editing by everyone, but, unless it's an article about some major topic or pop culture phenomena, most people do not bother. Individuals who have a strong bias can totally rewrite the articles that other people aren't paying attention to and slant them whichever way they want.
#48
Old 03-28-2014, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
Quite easily.

If you look at the history of that article (easy View history link at the top) you'll see relatively few people overall have edited it.

One of the most frequent editors (and the most recent right now) is someone calling him/herself Dingbatty. Clicking the contribs link next to that name on the history page shows the editing history of that editor across all of Wikipedia. On that page you can click the diff link next to each entry in the list to see the changes made in that edit. Literally all of the edits that person has made to Wikipedia over several years have been to promote Jennifer Freyd in various ways, either directly to her article or by adding links to papers she wrote which are hosted on her personal faculty page at the University of Oregon to other articles. We can speculate about who that editor is, and I think the obvious answer is probably correct in this case.

While others who edited that article aren't quite so blatant, there are others whose editing history, once examined, show similar bias. Jack-A-Roe, for example, is a name I recognize as someone who is clearly out to promote the idea that recovered memories and Satanic Ritual Abuse are completely real.

Wikipedia is open to editing by everyone, but, unless it's an article about some major topic or pop culture phenomena, most people do not bother. Individuals who have a strong bias can totally rewrite the articles that other people aren't paying attention to and slant them whichever way they want.
Good explanation! Thanks.

The general consensus is that recovered memory is the bullshit it appears to be on first glance. It has torn her and many other families apart.
#49
Old 03-28-2014, 07:48 PM
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Additionally, Wikipedia has a Biographies of living persons policy, which is an expression of how gunshy they are about being sued for defamation. In specific:
Quote:
Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
It's enforced. It might even be enforced to a fault, but that ultimately comes from an official dictate, not the editors themselves.

On the other hand, you'll notice that a lot of users are banned from editing certain articles, such as SRA-related articles, to stop them from spreading a bias or simply vandalizing articles. This is part of what makes reading the talk pages so interesting.
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#50
Old 03-29-2014, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
You win the thread. Congratulations.
Says you...watch this:

"Good grief, I've told you about that evidence at least half a dozen times, and each time you claim that you've never heard of it. "

hh: "Oh, yeah, I remember, now."




Don't you be telling me nothin' about funny.
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