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#1
Old 10-29-2013, 07:33 PM
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"I'll see you when I see you"

"I'll see you when I see you" is an occasionally-used phrase that sounds completely uninformative and tautologically true. But if, in fact, I will not see you ever, is the statement true or false?

Similarly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by "William Shakespeare
It is shaped, sir, like itself, and it is as broad as it hath breadth.
Would this self-referential tautology be true if it was not applied to an alligator but rather to, say, love (which has no shape or breadth, except perhaps metaphorically)?
#2
Old 10-29-2013, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyemile View Post
"I'll see you when I see you" is an occasionally-used phrase that sounds completely uninformative and tautologically true. But if, in fact, I will not see you ever, is the statement true or false?
It is true.

And if you really don't understand what this idiom means, it means that I am am not going to make a date or appointment to see you again.
#3
Old 10-29-2013, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njtt View Post
It is true.
Why?

Quote:
And if you really don't understand what this idiom means, it means that I am am not going to make a date or appointment to see you again.
Duh.
#4
Old 10-29-2013, 08:22 PM
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I'll see you when I see you.

If I see you again, then I have seen you at the moment when I saw you. Statement is true.

If I do NOT see you again, then I have not seen you, but because I haven't seen you, it isn't pertinent to the statement in question. Statement is still true.

For a really fun twist, you can also take into consideration that "seeing" doesn't require the participation of the seen.

So Reyemile could be a corpse, and therefore not see njtt, but njtt goes to Reyemile's open-casket funeral, and sees them again. hijinks ensue.
#5
Old 10-29-2013, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyemile View Post
Duh.
Learn to notice things like italics when you read.

Incidentally, the second example is also true, something like love, that has no breadth is indeed just as as broad as it hath breadth. 0=0
#6
Old 10-29-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reyemile View Post
"I'll see you when I see you" is an occasionally-used phrase that sounds completely uninformative and tautologically true. But if, in fact, I will not see you ever, is the statement true or false?
It is a vacuous truth.
#7
Old 10-29-2013, 09:07 PM
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Used to good effect in the film Gallipoli .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_%281981_film%29

Archy Hamilton: I'll see you when I see you.

Frank Dunne: Yeah. Not if I see you first.

http://quotes.net/mquote/35333
#8
Old 10-29-2013, 09:30 PM
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Wherever I go, there I am.
#9
Old 10-29-2013, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glee View Post
Wherever I go, there I am.
Stalker's twist - Wherever you go, there I am
#10
Old 10-29-2013, 09:45 PM
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Yeah, the answer is "never".

I'll see you never so I'll see you never.
#11
Old 10-29-2013, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich06 View Post
Used to good effect in the film Gallipoli .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_%281981_film%29

Archy Hamilton: I'll see you when I see you.

Frank Dunne: Yeah. Not if I see you first.

http://quotes.net/mquote/35333
I've never understood what that reply meant. Please explain if you have an idea.

The nearest I could figure is that it was a way of friendly chops busting by Frank (and later in the movie Archie) replying that if Frank (later Archie) sees Archie (later Frank) before Archie (later Frank) sees Frank (later Archie), then Frank (later Archie) will duck out of the way so that Archie (later Frank) never in fact sees Frank (later Archie). But that still would not negate the initial statement.

Then I've also wondered if it may have been just a sort of verbal 1-2 that was in common parlance at the time? Perhaps an anachronistic Aussieism? Or just made up by the screenwriter? I've never heard that reply anywhere but in that movie.
#12
Old 10-29-2013, 11:23 PM
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It is what it is.
#13
Old 10-29-2013, 11:43 PM
Oly Oly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan's Spawn View Post
It is what it is.
Yeah. Not if it's not.
#14
Old 10-29-2013, 11:53 PM
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See you later
Not if I see you first

A fairly common retort literally meaning "I don't want anything to do with you and will avoid you if I am able to". Generally its humourous undertones are understood and it is perceived as mild banter.

Extended to the "See you when I see you" line of Gallipoli makes less sense if taken literally. But given that both lines are intended quips it is not an implausible line.

You'll understand when you understand.
#15
Old 10-29-2013, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oly View Post
I've never understood what that reply meant. Please explain if you have an idea.

The nearest I could figure is that it was a way of friendly chops busting by Frank (and later in the movie Archie) replying that if Frank (later Archie) sees Archie (later Frank) before Archie (later Frank) sees Frank (later Archie), then Frank (later Archie) will duck out of the way so that Archie (later Frank) never in fact sees Frank (later Archie). But that still would not negate the initial statement.

Then I've also wondered if it may have been just a sort of verbal 1-2 that was in common parlance at the time? Perhaps an anachronistic Aussieism? Or just made up by the screenwriter? I've never heard that reply anywhere but in that movie.
Not sure about it's use at the time the film was set but a few things that might help you...

1. I have used it
2. It is typical of the sort of humour you would expect
3. The scene (if I remember correctly) was rather poignant and touching - one was going off to his expected death, and typical of antipodean humour, they didn't want to get all soppy and emotional - one is saying goodbye in a way that meant they didn't expect to meet again - and the other is replying (essentially) - well I don't want to see you anyway!! (in some form of gallows humour)

Addressing the meaning of the actual phrase -

It basically means - well, I'm not sure what my plans are, or when we'll get back together. Let's not make a date, but rather agree to get together again when the stars align - which given that we move in the same circles won't be that long
#16
Old 10-30-2013, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njtt View Post
Learn to notice things like italics when you read.

Incidentally, the second example is also true, something like love, that has no breadth is indeed just as as broad as it hath breadth. 0=0
As someone who works extensively with databases, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Love doesn't have a defined breadth of 0; the whole notion of breadth is undefined for something abstract like love. Therefore, the breadth of love is, by database convention, NULL, and NULL != NULL. The notion of the breadth of love is as meaningless and undefined as, say, the grumpiness of blue, or the zondliness of the UN.

Whether this statement about breadth is also true for a mathematical line is left as as exercise for the reader, although I would suggest that since it has a defined width of 0, it is true.
#17
Old 10-30-2013, 08:05 AM
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As someone who interacts with high level corporate management and customers I often hear the phase "I'll see you when I see you" or something similar all the time. Generally it means "Can't get to you now I'm busy fighting other fires; I'll get back to you when I have the time or remind me next time we run into each other." Of course running into these guys is a rare occurrence.

Yes it's snarky statement, but if I were to reply back with a smart ass comment like "Not if I see you first" I'd get a moment of there time, just enough time to get both barrels of their rage and not get any movement on my request.
#18
Old 10-30-2013, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oly View Post
I've never understood what that reply meant. Please explain if you have an idea.

The nearest I could figure is that it was a way of friendly chops busting by Frank (and later in the movie Archie) replying that if Frank (later Archie) sees Archie (later Frank) before Archie (later Frank) sees Frank (later Archie), then Frank (later Archie) will duck out of the way so that Archie (later Frank) never in fact sees Frank (later Archie). But that still would not negate the initial statement.

Then I've also wondered if it may have been just a sort of verbal 1-2 that was in common parlance at the time? Perhaps an anachronistic Aussieism? Or just made up by the screenwriter? I've never heard that reply anywhere but in that movie.
It is most often used just as a bit of meaningless banter, but 'not if I see you first' tends to imply "you won't see me at all, because if I see you first, I'll avoid you".

Last edited by Mangetout; 10-30-2013 at 08:15 AM.
#19
Old 10-30-2013, 08:34 AM
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Think of it as using some of the maxims of conversational implicature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicature

First, notice that it's true of any two people when they part, no matter how soon they will see each other and how much they want to see each other. Imagine a young couple in love. As he leaves the bedroom to go to the bathroom, he says to her, "Well, I'll see you when I'll see you." She should certainly be worried what he means by that. And yet it's true, so why should she be?

It's because one of the maxims of conversational implicature is that you don't say things that convey no new information. For him to say that in that situation implies that it's new information. She has to think, "What does he mean by saying that?" Similarly, when two people part with no plans to meet again, when one of them says, "Well, I'll see you when I'll see you," he intends to imply that he can't say, "Well, I'll see you." He doesn't know if they will ever meet again (or perhaps he knows that they probably will, but he can't say just when it will be).

People frequently say things that make no sense as a statement using just logic. Mere mathematical logic doesn't explain everything we say. You have to consider many other things, including the maxims of conversational implicature.
#20
Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glee View Post
Wherever I go, there I am.
AND furthermore, you'll get there when you get there.

(with the possible exception of Oakland, Ca., where you aren't there even when you're there, there being no there there.)
#21
Old 10-30-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dervorin View Post
As someone who works extensively with databases, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Love doesn't have a defined breadth of 0; the whole notion of breadth is undefined for something abstract like love. Therefore, the breadth of love is, by database convention, NULL, and NULL != NULL. The notion of the breadth of love is as meaningless and undefined as, say, the grumpiness of blue, or the zondliness of the UN.

Whether this statement about breadth is also true for a mathematical line is left as as exercise for the reader, although I would suggest that since it has a defined width of 0, it is true.
null != null except when null == null, objectively speaking.

it happens when it happens.

And everyone knows that blue is not grumpiness - blue is happy - the blues is sad - and grey is everywhere in between.

Last edited by simster; 10-30-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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