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#1
Old 10-30-2013, 01:29 PM
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Uk equivalent of US marshals

What's the UK equivalent of US marshals?
#2
Old 10-30-2013, 01:54 PM
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There's no direct equivalent that duplicates all the functions of the US Marshall's service, although many of their duties are covered by some body or other. Bear in mind that we don't have the equivalent of a federal courts system

Is there any particular US Marshall function you are particularly interested in comparing?
#3
Old 10-30-2013, 02:28 PM
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Capturing fugitives.
#4
Old 10-30-2013, 02:58 PM
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The police capture fugitives. Whereas in America there are Sheriff's Offices, Police Departments, State Police, the FBI, DEA, Marshalls, ATF an verious other law enforcement agencies, Britain just has the police. Generally organised as one force per county, more or less. The police are the only ones with the power of arrest (pther than a citizen's arrest, I suppose). There are some other groups who run intelligence and prosecution (the Serious and Organised Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, MI5, and so on), but any apprehending will be done by the the local Constabulary.
#5
Old 10-30-2013, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longshanks View Post
Capturing fugitives.
That's just handled by the police. We don't have the division of county, state,whatever police departments. It's split up by city or region, but there's only one level within each*, if you see what I mean. Someone on the run will just have a notice put out by one of the police forces to all the others and also to the ports and airports.

* there are a few specialized police forces that are nationwide in scope, the largest being the British Transport Police who look after the railways, and there's another that handles organized crime etc.
#6
Old 10-30-2013, 03:12 PM
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IIRC In Canada, so I assume in the UK, police or other peace officers are peace officers everywhere in the country, not just in their own little area. There is also only one system of courts for criminal offenses, as all criminal law falls under the central government.
#7
Old 10-30-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
There is also only one system of courts for criminal offenses, as all criminal law falls under the central government.
The UK, delighting in being complicated, has three separate court systems: England and Wales being one, with Scotland and Northern Ireland each having their own arrangements.
#8
Old 10-30-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longshanks View Post
Capturing fugitives.
Yes, one aspect of the U.S. Marshals Service is to capture fugitives. They are needed to go after federal fugitives, fugitives that cross state lines and to coordinate federal, state and local assets to capture the most dangerous fugitives. In countries that are not made up of semi-sovereign states with their own laws (and extradition) a separate entity is not needed.
#9
Old 10-30-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
The UK, delighting in being complicated, has three separate court systems: England and Wales being one, with Scotland and Northern Ireland each having their own arrangements.
Complicated? 3? Try 50. Plus territories. Plus federal court. Plus tribal lands. Not to mention state, county and local ordinances heard at lower court levels. And I'm sure there are weird permutations in certain states that I can't think of right now.
#10
Old 10-30-2013, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Complicated? 3? Try 50. Plus territories. Plus federal court. Plus tribal lands. Not to mention state, county and local ordinances heard at lower court levels. And I'm sure there are weird permutations in certain states that I can't think of right now.
Hah, I suppose I should have said "non-obvious". Another example: The Supreme Court of The United Kingdom is the supreme court for everything in the UK, right? Well, almost, but not for Scottish criminal cases it isn't.

But yeah, the US is on another level - makes it a bit puzzling reading some US crime novels and thrillers.
#11
Old 10-30-2013, 03:40 PM
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And it's not supreme at all - The European Court of Justice's rulings top it [Factortame, etc.]
#12
Old 10-30-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mk VII View Post
And it's not supreme at all - The European Court of Justice's rulings top it [Factortame, etc.]
In areas within its competence, yes. Same with the European Court of Human Rights.
#13
Old 10-30-2013, 06:57 PM
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How does Scotland Yard fit in to all of this? It's nationwide, right?
#14
Old 10-30-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Zombat View Post
How does Scotland Yard fit in to all of this? It's nationwide, right?
Sort of. New Scotland Yard is the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police, which is the police agency for London (except for the City of London, which has its own police). It's mainly just for London, but the Met is so large and so old that it does have a few nationwide responsibilities, like VIP protection.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-30-2013 at 07:39 PM.
#15
Old 10-30-2013, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
IIRC In Canada, so I assume in the UK, police or other peace officers are peace officers everywhere in the country, not just in their own little area.
No, this is not correct. If a police force is set up under federal law, notably the Mounties, they are peace officers throughout Canada. However, if they are set up under provincial law (eg the OPP or a municipal force), they are only peace officers within that province.

Quote:
There is also only one system of courts for criminal offenses, as all criminal law falls under the central government.
No, the criminal courts are provincial, and the orders from one provincial court do not automatically function in another province, without being validated by the courts of the second province. The validation is done under federal criminal law, but it's not one court system, but thirteen.
#16
Old 10-30-2013, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
No, this is not correct. If a police force is set up under federal law, notably the Mounties, they are peace officers throughout Canada. However, if they are set up under provincial law (eg the OPP or a municipal force), they are only peace officers within that province.


No, the criminal courts are provincial, and the orders from one provincial court do not automatically function in another province, without being validated by the courts of the second province. The validation is done under federal criminal law, but it's not one court system, but thirteen.
But other than that completely correct.
#17
Old 10-30-2013, 09:25 PM
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What exactly do US marshals do, anyway?
#18
Old 10-30-2013, 10:06 PM
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And in Westerns the town often has a marshall and a sherif. And the latter always defers to the former. Is there any reason that would be the case, or was it just dramatic license?
#19
Old 10-30-2013, 10:23 PM
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We do have sheriffs in Britain too, but (unlike back in the days of Robin Hood) they no longer have any law enforcement duties. In fact, they have very few duties at all, and are high most of the time.
#20
Old 10-30-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
Hah, I suppose I should have said "non-obvious". Another example: The Supreme Court of The United Kingdom is the supreme court for everything in the UK, right? Well, almost, but not for Scottish criminal cases it isn't.
Actually, if it raises a devolution question, the UKSC can and does hear Scottish criminal cases as it has taken over some of the Privy Council role.


As for US marshals! the new. National Crime Agency has similar powers.
#21
Old 10-30-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
What exactly do US marshals do, anyway?
Their core business is enforcing the judgments of the federal courts of the US 9including arrest warrants, which is where the seeking fugitives business comes in). Along with that, they protect court officers and court buildings. They have a couple of sidelines, like running the federal witness protection programme.

They turn up in cowboy movies because, before western territories were incorporated as states, the US Marshals were the principal law enforcement agency in those territories.
#22
Old 10-30-2013, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
But other than that completely correct.
#23
Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 PM
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As I understand it, US Marshals enforce court orders. That's what I'd be interested in (meaning the UK counterpart.)
#24
Old 10-31-2013, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by njtt View Post
We do have sheriffs in Britain too, but (unlike back in the days of Robin Hood) they no longer have any law enforcement duties. In fact, they have very few duties at all, and are high most of the time.
Scotland still has Sheriffs and Sherrif Courts. The Sherrifs are just judges these days though.

Last edited by Baron Greenback; 10-31-2013 at 04:53 AM.
#25
Old 10-31-2013, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by njtt View Post
We do have sheriffs in Britain too, but (unlike back in the days of Robin Hood) they no longer have any law enforcement duties. In fact, they have very few duties at all, and are high most of the time.
And once a year the Queen pricks their names
#26
Old 10-31-2013, 05:36 AM
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We now have the National Crime Agency

Quote:
The new 450 million National Crime Agency – already dubbed Britain’s FBI – is a 5,000-strong elite force with sweeping new powers to hunt down cyber criminals, drug barons, paedophile gangs and people-traffickers.

Read more: http://dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2jIKek3qz

Last edited by bob++; 10-31-2013 at 05:36 AM.
#27
Old 10-31-2013, 10:24 AM
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The police are the only ones with the power of arrest
No they are not, many others have the powers of arrest and detention within their duties of employment, and use these powers very regularly.

Community Support Officers.
Border Agency (immigration officials) which can be at border points or during busts.
Military Police - some of these can be shore patrols rather than full time MP - although an MP will have to authorise the arrest.
Court Officials
Prison Officers - arrests happen regularly of prisoners for indictable offences, of corrupt staff, and of visitors attempting a number of offences including smuggling and assisting an escape.
Some other prison workers may also detain prisoners for various reasons until the arrival of a prison officer.

This is a surprisingly large number of people, there are some other oddities such as some sorts of bailiffs and gamekeepers - depending upon who they are employed by.
#28
Old 10-31-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bob++ View Post
We now have the National Crime Agency
I thought MI5 (aka the Security Service) was the equivalent to the FBI.

Rob

Last edited by sweeteviljesus; 10-31-2013 at 03:40 PM.
#29
Old 10-31-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sweeteviljesus View Post
I thought MI5 (aka the Security Service) was the equivalent to the FBI.

Rob
Not really - MI5 isn't a police force/LEA as such, it's an intelligence agency.
#30
Old 10-31-2013, 03:47 PM
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MI5 is more like the NSA - it's nothing like the FBI.
#31
Old 10-31-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sweeteviljesus View Post
I thought MI5 (aka the Security Service) was the equivalent to the FBI.

Rob
They do some of the stuff that the FBI does, their primary role being counterintelligence

Last edited by Baron Greenback; 10-31-2013 at 03:52 PM.
#32
Old 10-31-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bozuit View Post
MI5 is more like the NSA - it's nothing like the FBI.

GCHQ is the equivalent of the NSA.
#33
Old 10-31-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by casdave View Post

Community Support Officers.
I thought PCSOs don't have any greater power of arrest than any ordinary citizen?
#34
Old 10-31-2013, 04:11 PM
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I think the last few posts demonstrate that there's hardly anything comparable between the two countries!
#35
Old 10-31-2013, 04:12 PM
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The UK Marshals would be the equivalent if I did not just make them up.

The nearest equivalent would probably be the NCA, but they're more like a body to tackle crime that it makes more sense to tackle on a national rather than regional level.
#36
Old 10-31-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
I thought PCSOs don't have any greater power of arrest than any ordinary citizen?
See for yourself. (NSFW)
#37
Old 11-01-2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
I thought PCSOs don't have any greater power of arrest than any ordinary citizen?
That is correct. MI5, also, can't arrest people. Both have to get the real police to do that. PCSOs can detain suspects who refuse to provide a name and address for up to half an hour, though.
#38
Old 11-01-2013, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blindboyard View Post
That is correct. MI5, also, can't arrest people. Both have to get the real police to do that. PCSOs can detain suspects who refuse to provide a name and address for up to half an hour, though.
That is, to arrest people.

In AUS, the distinction between police officers and other people is that, under the various police acts, sworn officers can arrest people on the **suspicion** of criminal activity, or to **prevent** criminal activity.

Any person here may arrest any other person who has committed a crime, and who is about to commit more crimes, or won't give a name and address, but if I arrest a person who has not committed a crime, it's false imprisonment (kidnapping).

Even if I think the person has committed a crime, if it's not proved afterwards, I might be charged. Which is a powerful disensitive.

Do PCSO's have the power to detain (arrest) people if they think it's a good idea, subject only to administrative punishment?
#39
Old 11-01-2013, 04:48 AM
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Originally, a "marshal" was a servant whose job it was to look after the horses. (The first syllable in "marshal" is etymologically connected with "mare"). In a large household this was a position of some importance; especially in the king's household, which in the late middle ages spent a lot of time travelling from place to place, and so depended on having good arrangements for horses and transport. In England, the Earl Marshal, or Marshal of England, became a high officer of state, and had wide responsiblity for the king's household. (The office still exists, and has functions in connection with royal ceremonial.)

Various courts had their own marshals. They got that title, apparently, because the courts were the king's courts, and they were considered to be deputies of the Marshal of England. They were charged with the court's "household arrangements", which included not only providing and maintaining a courthouse but also running a prison, and being responsible for the custody of prisoners.

The English courts were rationalised and consolidated in the course of the nineteenth century, and the function of running prisons was separated, and in the course of these reforms the office of court marshal disappeared.

However it was still very much around in the late 18th century, when the Americans were adapting English institutions to the requirements of the newly-independent colonies. And, as the English had no police force at the time, the marshal's job of keeping prisoners in custody also extended to finding and arresting them, and to enforcing other court orders. The US adopted this. Since there was nothing like a US federal police force until the establishment of the FBI, US marshals did not fade away in the way the English marshals did. Even without the the running of prisons to worry about, the US marshal service had plenty of useful work to be doing.
#40
Old 11-01-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
GCHQ is the equivalent of the NSA.
Agreed that they're closer, but I was looking for a US equivalent to MI5, not a UK equivalent to the NSA. Either way, I think the point is clear enough.
#41
Old 11-01-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Bozuit View Post
Agreed that they're closer, but I was looking for a US equivalent to MI5, not a UK equivalent to the NSA. Either way, I think the point is clear enough.
MI5 is a domestic intelligence agency. The US does not have an equivalent in the sense of an intelligence agency whose remit is domestic. The functions of MI5 are carried out by the FBI in the US, in addition to its other duties. The FBI has resisted calls for its Intelligence arms being spun off.

Last edited by AK84; 11-01-2013 at 11:47 AM.
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