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#1
Old 08-29-2016, 01:26 PM
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Does "Stop Here on Red" also mean "No Turn on Red"?

This type of signage might not be universal, but in Northern NJ we frequently see signs that say "Stop Here on Red" and there's usually a line on the road that tells you where to stop. After almost 30 years of driving here, I still can't get a consensus on whether it also implies "No Turn on Red", which is also ubiquitous around here.

When learning how to drive, I was always told by my father that "Stop Here on Red" means you stay put until the light turns green. But sometimes I'll see both signs at the same intersection, which tells me that "No Turn on Red" is not implied, or else why have both signs?
#2
Old 08-29-2016, 01:30 PM
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I would read that sign as just telling drivers where the stop line was, to avoid cars stopping too far into the intersection. I would think you could still turn right on red when safe to do so.

States seem to have no problem with "no right turn on red" signs when they want them.
#3
Old 08-29-2016, 01:30 PM
The Zeroeth Mod
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Hmm. I don't know the legal answer to this (and I agree with your logic about having both in place). However, generally speaking, when I see the "Stop Here On Red" signs, it's in a location where there's a visibility or clearance issue at the intersection that would also make it difficult to safely proceed against the light. Maybe that's not the case where you are, though.
#4
Old 08-29-2016, 01:39 PM
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In California, "stop here on red" means just that. Once you've stopped, you can turn right if it isn't otherwise forbidden and it is safe to proceed. I can dig up cites if desired.

The "stop here on red" signage I regularly encounter are in those locations either where the roads are a bit askew, making it easy to stop too far into the intersection, or where pedestrians are likely to deviate from the crosswalk given that location's particular foot-traffic sources/destinations.
#5
Old 08-29-2016, 01:42 PM
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It also likely is to indirectly remind you to stop where the pavement sensor can detect you, so that you don't miss the next cycle.
#6
Old 08-29-2016, 01:43 PM
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My logic interpretation would be this: It is implied that STOP HERE ON RED also means NO TURN ON RED because SHOR always makes you stop farther away from the corner/intersection for some reason. Since you are not near enough to the corner you cannot turn right on red from there, you'd essentially be going thru the red light, not making a true right on red.
#7
Old 08-29-2016, 02:01 PM
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Unlike Canada, in the US, unless an action is explicitly forbidden, it is permitted.
So, Stop Here on Red does not exclude Right Turn on Red.
#8
Old 08-29-2016, 02:12 PM
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If you really are unsure of the answer contact your local sheriffs office to determine the answer. They're the ones in the best position to determine if they would pull you over for it.
#9
Old 08-29-2016, 02:46 PM
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"Stop Here On Red" does not mean "Stay Here While Light Is Still Red," any more than a "STOP" sign means stop and stay stopped until the sign changes . It's all plain and simple -- every driver knows to stop for a red light, and this sign is just clarifying WHERE to stop in certain locations as mentioned in posts #2 & 4. The word "Here" is what is significant about the sign. ETA: Reading more into it than what is explicitly stated is just asking for unnecessary complication.

Say what you will about how governments do things, no agency is going to confuse the issue by having signs that say "Stop Here On Red" when what they mean is "No Turn On Red." The fact that some intersection have both signs underscores the logic that each sign has its own separate meaning, and if they want you both stop where indicated AND not turn on red there, they'll put up both signs.

Last edited by Gary T; 08-29-2016 at 02:47 PM.
#10
Old 08-29-2016, 02:50 PM
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The NJ Vehicle code is Title 39 of the NJ statutes. See link

They're not real easy to navigate. The best I was able to come up was this link for right turns at intersections controlled by lights, and this link for intersections controlled by signs.

Both say you can turn right against a stop light signal or sign after stopping & ensuring it's safe to continue. No mention of an "except where a 'stop here on red' sign is posted."

My vote (as somebody who has never lived in NJ and only rarely driven there) is that "stop here on red" does NOT imply "no turn on red."


If you get pulled over for trying this, be sure to tell Officer Friendly that some random dude on the internet assured you it was OK. Then shout your defiance over the Officer's ignorance using lots of foul language. It'll work out fine. I assure you.
#11
Old 08-29-2016, 02:52 PM
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From the MUTCD (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices), Section 2B.53-02:

Quote:
Traffic Signal signs (see Figure 2B-27) may be installed at certain locations to clarify signal control. Among the legends that may be used for this purpose are LEFT ON GREEN ARROW ONLY (R10-5), STOP HERE ON RED (R10-6 or R10-6a) for observance of stop lines, DO NOT BLOCK INTERSECTION (R10-7) for avoidance of traffic obstructions, USE LANE(S) WITH GREEN ARROW (R10-8) for obedience to lane-use control signals (see Chapter 4M), LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN (symbolic circular green) (R10-12), and LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING RED ARROW AFTER STOP (R10-27).
Bolding mine. This is the federal bible of traffic signage. If states want to do something else (cough**California**cough), they make their own manual. Even then it's about 99% the same.

The description says nothing at all about not turning on red, and it would, if that was included. It does say that it's only allowed with a signal.
#12
Old 08-29-2016, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This type of signage might not be universal, but in Northern NJ we frequently see signs that say "Stop Here on Red" and there's usually a line on the road that tells you where to stop. After almost 30 years of driving here, I still can't get a consensus on whether it also implies "No Turn on Red", which is also ubiquitous around here.

When learning how to drive, I was always told by my father that "Stop Here on Red" means you stay put until the light turns green. But sometimes I'll see both signs at the same intersection, which tells me that "No Turn on Red" is not implied, or else why have both signs?
No it doesn't mean "no turn on red." It means stop at the line and then yield to turn right. Or left if on a one way street going onto a one way street.
#13
Old 08-29-2016, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Or left if on a one way street going onto a one way street.
The OP is in New Jersey. Left on red is always illegal.
#14
Old 08-29-2016, 05:05 PM
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I would guess it doesn't mean not turn on red. But then, I live in a state that has red arrows that do not mean don't turn right on red unless they're accompanied by a sign that says "don't turn right on red" so no one knows why they're used sans signage instead of red lights which you can also turn right on after stopping.
#15
Old 08-29-2016, 05:13 PM
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Some western states have allowed right turns on red for a long time. It became national in the 70s (though this being the US, it required enactment by each individual state). The final state to allow it was I believe Maryland in the late 70s.

I remember "stop her on red" signs from earlier than that in Ohio when I learned to drive.
#16
Old 08-29-2016, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasta View Post
The OP is in New Jersey. Left on red is always illegal.
In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way.
#17
Old 08-29-2016, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael View Post
In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way.
Yes, that's why I pointed out that the OP is in New Jersey, where it is not OK.
#18
Old 08-29-2016, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael View Post
In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way.
Alaska is like that, but most drivers are ignorant of the fact.
#19
Old 08-29-2016, 07:16 PM
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I've generally found the sign used to keep traffic back on narrow intersections so trucks can negotiate turns. It does not mean no right turn on red or there would be a sign that says that.
#20
Old 08-29-2016, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
I've generally found the sign used to keep traffic back on narrow intersections so trucks can negotiate turns. It does not mean no right turn on red or there would be a sign that says that.
Yup. I see that a lot as well as for crosswalks. Once you stop, and it is clear, you can inch forward and make your turn.
#21
Old 08-29-2016, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
The NJ Vehicle code is Title 39 of the NJ statutes. See link

They're not real easy to navigate. The best I was able to come up was this link for right turns at intersections controlled by lights, and this link for intersections controlled by signs.

Both say you can turn right against a stop light signal or sign after stopping & ensuring it's safe to continue. No mention of an "except where a 'stop here on red' sign is posted."

My vote (as somebody who has never lived in NJ and only rarely driven there) is that "stop here on red" does NOT imply "no turn on red."


If you get pulled over for trying this, be sure to tell Officer Friendly that some random dude on the internet assured you it was OK. Then shout your defiance over the Officer's ignorance using lots of foul language. It'll work out fine. I assure you.
Yes you are correct. 39:4-115 governs right turns on red. A sign saying stop here on red is the same as the broad white stop line at an intersection. You come to a complete stop then if there is no sign prohibiting it you can proceed to make a right turn on red. Although I haven't done traffic enforcement in a while the statute hasn't changed.
#22
Old 08-29-2016, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael View Post
In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way.
I was a teenage driver in South Dakota when they joined the rest of the world and allowed Right Turn on Red (after a stop). In fact, in my small one-light town, I drove around the block a few times until it was just after midnight (according the the radio station) so I could be the first person in town to turn right on red. Such excitement!

Anyway, at that time the only place where there were two one-way streets were a left turn on red would make sense was one intersection in Sioux Falls. The law was written so it was allowed by state law, but the city of Sioux Falls put up a No Left Turn on Red sign. Buggers!
#23
Old 08-29-2016, 10:25 PM
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The "stop here on red" sign augments the white line. It helps you see something that's sort of hard to see over your hood, especially when there's snow on the ground. It's like how they put arrows on the ground in a turn lane but they also put them on a sign.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 08-29-2016 at 10:25 PM.
#24
Old 08-29-2016, 10:38 PM
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The key part of that statement is the word "here." Stopping on red is what you already do. So it must be marking the point where you must stop.

I don't get why anyone would think it meant "No right on red." Now, maybe if you didn't have to stop to turn right, it would mean "you must stop first." But you don't.

Any idea where your dad got this idea?
#25
Old 08-29-2016, 11:24 PM
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"Stop here on red" means "stop here on red, then proceed if it's legal/safe to do so." It has nothing to do with "No turn on red."
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