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#1
Old 01-21-2017, 12:27 PM
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Why is your Gmail account so easily hacked?

I just stumbled onto this myself by recovering a friends account.

If you know anyone's gmail account creation date (month and year), you can take over their account. You can ask them to show you by playing a game "I bet my gmail is older then yours" and they will show you wrong by looking it up and you can see month/year. Or just look in your inbox when they first emailed you, or many people announce "this is my new email" by mass mailing everyone in their contacts. You can also just keep guessing, Google doesn't seem to have a limit.

Is this not INSANE????

It works every time as long as you do it from behind the same router they ever used to log in. So everyone at work, or at home, or anyone logged in at a library or Wifi hotspot, can be hacked this way. It even bypasses 2 step authentication completely.

I reported it to Google security and they said "it works as it should, there is no problem here". I have a HUGE problem with this.
#2
Old 01-21-2017, 12:35 PM
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You need to know more than just the creation date for the account to gain access to the account. You also need a recent password.
#3
Old 01-21-2017, 12:36 PM
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No you don't. Try it.

Edit: Just keep hitting "try another question" after choosing "forgot password", to get to the screen where it asks you month and date. After that if you know this information, you are in.

Last edited by shawnimator; 01-21-2017 at 12:39 PM.
#4
Old 01-21-2017, 12:48 PM
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Ya Think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
Is this not INSANE????
If there is anything "INSANE" about gMail, or any web-mail service for that matter, it is that stupid people routinely store valuable and/or sensitive information with it.
#5
Old 01-21-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberArchetype View Post
If there is anything "INSANE" about gMail, or any web-mail service for that matter, it is that stupid people routinely store valuable and/or sensitive information with it.
And don't follow even basic security protocol.
#6
Old 01-21-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberArchetype View Post
If there is anything "INSANE" about gMail, or any web-mail service for that matter, it is that stupid people routinely store valuable and/or sensitive information with it.
Yeah, but all this big deal over secure passwords and 2-step authentication, and all you need to know is this trivial bit of easily obtained information, to steal anyone's account?
#7
Old 01-21-2017, 06:40 PM
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I get this during the recovery process.
"If you can, briefly tell us why you can’t access your account. Google will get back to you in 1-3 hours."

So if this is actually read by a real person, how high the bar is set on your explanation is instrumental.

Last edited by Cugel; 01-21-2017 at 06:42 PM.
#8
Old 01-21-2017, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
I get this during the recovery process.
"If you can, briefly tell us why you canít access your account. Google will get back to you in 1-3 hours."

So if this is actually read by a real person, how high the bar is set on your explanation is instrumental.
It says that if it won't work. If you type in a reason it will fail right away. Either wrong date chosen, or that user account isn't considered to be part of the network you are trying to access from.

When it accepts it, it goes straight to typing in the code Google emails you, and then straight into password change.
#9
Old 01-21-2017, 08:30 PM
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Try it for your own account or an account you know connects from within that network. Which would be the same as a coworker, or any family member at home.

Try to log in but say you forgot the password. Then choose the month/year the account was created question. Input the proper month/year (in your inbox choose oldest, and see when your own account was created). And then follow the instructions.
#10
Old 01-23-2017, 10:38 AM
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Who even knows the month/year that they created their gmail account?

That is a terrible question to ask a user. How would one even find that out?
#11
Old 01-23-2017, 03:16 PM
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For posterity, I tried this with an old gmail account I no longer use.

It did look like it was going to work. I entered the correct month/year and it asked for a second email address to send a verification code to. It then really did send the verification code to this second email address. However, once I entered that verification code back in gmail.com, I got the following:

Couldn't sign you in

Thanks for verifying your email.

You weren’t signed in because Google couldn’t confirm that [email protected] belongs to you.

So, it doesn't seem to me like it's as easy to take over the account as the OP is saying.

OP, did you really steal someone else's email account, or just managed to take over one that was rightfully yours to begin with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermitian View Post
Who even knows the month/year that they created their gmail account?

That is a terrible question to ask a user. How would one even find that out?
It's only one of many different ways gmail tries to help you recover. It comes after several other options such as recovery phone number, email addresses, last know passwords, etc.

Last edited by arseNal; 01-23-2017 at 03:18 PM.
#12
Old 01-23-2017, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
If you know anyone's gmail account creation date (month and year), you can take over their account. You can ask them to show you by playing a game "I bet my gmail is older then yours" and they will show you wrong by looking it up and you can see month/year. Or just look in your inbox when they first emailed you, or many people announce "this is my new email" by mass mailing everyone in their contacts. You can also just keep guessing, Google doesn't seem to have a limit.
For the sake of argument, assuming everything you said is true, the above statements are a form of social engineering in order to gain information that should not be shared. Of course, there is an ego mindset at work here where some personality types are quite susceptible at being manipulated.
#13
Old 01-23-2017, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arseNal View Post
You weren’t signed in because Google couldn’t confirm that [email protected] belongs to you.
[/B]
So, it doesn't seem to me like it's as easy to take over the account as the OP is saying.

OP, did you really steal someone else's email account, or just managed to take over one that was rightfully yours to begin with?
Hmmm. You may have been missing one component of the OP's mechanism. Your IP address must match one that has been used in the past to log-in to the account being hacked. If you had not used the account in some time this might be hard to manage, especially if you tried from home on a link that has dynamically allocated IP addresses.

Just how Gmail is supposed to perform the missing confirmation is hard to understand. It sent you the verification code. But it didn't work. IP address is about all it has to go on at this point - so the threat remains plausible and worrying.

Last edited by Francis Vaughan; 01-23-2017 at 05:11 PM.
#14
Old 01-23-2017, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
Hmmm. You may have been missing one component of the OP's mechanism. Your IP address must match one that has been used in the past to log-in to the account being hacked. If you had not used the account in some time this might be hard to manage, especially if you tried from home on a link that has dynamically allocated IP addresses.
Actually, right before attempting the recovery, I logged in legitimately to the "lost" account, in order to find out the correct month/year of account creation. So not only had I logged in with that account from the same IP sometime in the past, I had done so not 5 minutes before the recovery attempt. Not only that, I even used the same browser (albeit in incognito mode), so it probably even had the same browser fingerprint. Google still rejected the attempt.

Quote:
Just how Gmail is supposed to perform the missing confirmation is hard to understand. It sent you the verification code. But it didn't work. IP address is about all it has to go on at this point - so the threat remains plausible and worrying.
Agreed that it's hard to understand. I imagine that the algorithms that decide whether or not to allow the recovery to happen are something they will keep private and tinker with internally all the time. I was also a bit worried that it was *as easy* as OP suggested, so I'm glad to have been able to somewhat disprove it. After all, google has to balance the security of the accounts against the ability for legit users to recover. They don't have an obligation to treat your gmail account like Fort Knox, and meanwhile they have users complaining that they can't get back into their account to retrieve their previous emails and pics and google docs and whatnot.
#15
Old 01-23-2017, 06:18 PM
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I am more likely to reveal my password than the date I got my email account. I only know one of the two.
#16
Old 01-23-2017, 08:23 PM
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Hi guys, OP here.

I've done this with 3 accounts so far. One even from the year 2006 when I created it for a friend who has forgotten all about it.

What I find is that if your computer is not registered to that IP network, then it will ask you for extra questions, and ultimately fail.

But basically it worked all 3 times as long as the computer has been used from that network before. And I only "hacked" my friends.

Basically Google says this is all legit, and this is how it works. If it doesn't work for you, then either your month/year is wrong, or the computer is not considered to be a frequent enough user from that IP. So anyone at work or home it should work.

And for as to find out the date, just look at my opening post. Easiest thing ever. And not sure if you guys remember "inviting" others to Gmail when it just started, but basically everyone that I invited at the office I can hack now from the information GOOGLE provided to me.
#17
Old 01-23-2017, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermitian View Post
Who even knows the month/year that they created their gmail account?

That is a terrible question to ask a user. How would one even find that out?
Go to your inbox, and click "oldest" up top by the message count. It will show the first day of your account and Google greeting you will be your first email.
#18
Old 01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
What I find is that if your computer is not registered to that IP network, ....
Can you explain in more precise technical terms what you mean by this?
By itself I can't work out what you are trying to say.
#19
Old 01-23-2017, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
Can you explain in more precise technical terms what you mean by this?
By itself I can't work out what you are trying to say.
Basically Gmail wants to only authorize you to unlock your own account. However since we all share the same internet connection at work or at home, you share the same IP number as far as Google is concerned. Go to any terminal at work and google "what's my IP" and you will get the same number from all the computers.

So if you lock yourself out of your own account, Google gives you an option to reset the password by knowing the month/year you created your account, just as long as it can determine you are doing it from your own computer. Let's say it's fully legit, and you are at work. You can unlock your own account from any terminal at your work, since all computers share the same IP number to the internet (you are all sharing the internet modem).

At the same time, this means your coworkers or family members can unlock your account as well because it all looks proper from Google's point of view. And when they do unlock it, there is nothing you can do about it. There is no option to disable this simple question or reset your "gmail creation date". Even 2 step won't save you if someone at work (or at home, or maybe even at the library) knows this date.

I was a very early adopter of Gmail, so I have super awesome simple login names. Anyone who knows anything could guess it couldn't have been created much past when Gmail started. All they have to do is keep guessing month by month, and sooner or later they will break into my account this way. And there is nothing I can do. And if I stumbled on this by accident, how many people already know this and are abusing it?

I went to the Google support forums after I found this, and people as far back as 2013 were complaining about this, but nothing has been done. So if you can try to keep your gmail creation date super secret, but who would guess it's this simple. And most if not all of us announce it to the whole world by sending an email "HEY, this is my new email, don't use the old one" and bingo, they have your creation date.
#20
Old 01-23-2017, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arseNal View Post
Actually, right before attempting the recovery, I logged in legitimately to the "lost" account, in order to find out the correct month/year of account creation. So not only had I logged in with that account from the same IP sometime in the past, I had done so not 5 minutes before the recovery attempt. Not only that, I even used the same browser (albeit in incognito mode), so it probably even had the same browser fingerprint. Google still rejected the attempt...
I don't claim to know how all of Google works, but I would think trying to recover a password 5 minutes after logging in may not be to their liking. After all, you just logged in, so why ask for a new password? That could be a reason why it failed.
#21
Old 01-24-2017, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
However since we all share the same internet connection at work or at home, you share the same IP number as far as Google is concerned.
OK, you are talking about NAT/IP-masquerading

It isn't quite as simple as that, but close.

Not everyone uses a NAT'ed internet connection. Plenty of places have class C addresses, and many have class B. There are the anointed few that still have their class A even. When I was working at my old university we had a class B address, and my workstation had its own IP address.

NAT is a bit more complicated that just everyone having the same external IP address - the NAT implementation in the router has to be able to make everything work, and it has to know how to route back to your PC traffic sent to the one and only IP address that is externally visible. Typically it will need to do this by changing the port number the traffic appears to come from. A careful external server can see the different traffic come from different port numbers, even though the IP address is the same. Google may well watch the port numbers and have some algorithm for deciding what to do. However the port numbers will vary all over the place as connections are made, so it isn't really clear what they could do.

Running the browser in private mode when trying to log in with the validation code may cause a failure because when you asked for the password reset Google may have dropped a cookie into your browser that it later tries to match with the validation code. This stops someone intercepting the email with the code in and using it to break the account. You need to log in from the same browser session - the one with the cookie.
#22
Old 01-24-2017, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
Go to your inbox, and click "oldest" up top by the message count. It will show the first day of your account and Google greeting you will be your first email.
Yeah, but he's the owner. How can a stranger know it? And if someone close to me wants access to my email there are easier ways (like, you know, using my computer).
#23
Old 01-24-2017, 03:11 AM
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I don't know exactly how it's verifying it, or what it is really looking for.

But I know I can use this method from any computer at my work for any of the gmail account password resets I tried so far.

Just now I tried the method using a totally unrelated computer on a different floor of the office (all behind the same router/modem), and Google didn't even have to send an authorization code to me, it just let me straight into changing the password to an account when I chose the right month/year. I changed the password to this gmail account this same way about 4 days ago from a different computer (mine that time) but it had to send me the code then.

I am not logged in anywhere as myself, I am logged into our network as one of my coworkers, on a totally random machine changing a password to an account it should have zero rights to change apart from me knowing the month/year of that account creation.

From reading the Google support forums this was the same scenario others were upset about, but Google never replied at all.
#24
Old 01-24-2017, 03:15 AM
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The general rule is that something as simple as a date has too little entropy in it to be an effective guard against cracking. A range of three years only gives a shade over 1000 possible choices. IE, no more effective than a three digit PIN.

Compared to the rules for choosing useful passwords, this is insanely poor.

I get phone support conversations all the time where they want to verify your identity with nothing more than birth date. Sometimes only day and month. However they have rung me - or have used caller id - so they have some hope they are talking to the right person, but it isn't exactly secure.
#25
Old 01-24-2017, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Girl View Post
Yeah, but he's the owner. How can a stranger know it? And if someone close to me wants access to my email there are easier ways (like, you know, using my computer).
You can't "hack" a stranger this way, since you have to be behind the same modem/router. But your coworkers can hack you, or your family members can all take each others accounts this way.

Have you never sent "this is my new email" to people on your contact list? If you did, then they have your gmail creation date, unless you waited years to send it to them after creating it.

I know at work I could get anyone's account creation date just by going "Hey, my gmail is acting funny, what happens when you click "oldest" in your inbox". And right away I would see their creation date as it goes to the oldest page, and the very first email is their creation date as Google sends it.

No I haven't done it, because I don't want to know, but this is so easy and nobody would blink an eye. Who would imagine knowing gmail creation date to be of any use to anyone? I bet if you asked them they would just tell you anyway if they knew how to find out.
#26
Old 01-24-2017, 03:47 AM
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Yeah, but if they want to hack my email, they need my phone. My phone is easier to get hold of for someone close to me than that date.
#27
Old 01-24-2017, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
The general rule is that something as simple as a date has too little entropy in it to be an effective guard against cracking. A range of three years only gives a shade over 1000 possible choices. IE, no more effective than a three digit PIN.
Since you only need to get the month/year correct (they don't ask for a day), to cover 3 years you only need to try 36 times to hit every single one!! Not sure if Google blocks you after many tries somehow, but I tried few times choosing the wrong dates on purpose to see what it does and about the 3rd time entered the correct one and it let me in.

Just seems like a total joke to even have this as an recovery option. Good thing my triple secret password is safe though....
#28
Old 01-24-2017, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Girl View Post
Yeah, but if they want to hack my email, they need my phone. My phone is easier to get hold of for someone close to me than that date.
Or they can just see when you sent them the first email, and then keep guessing backwards month by month. 12 guesses = 1 year. It goes pretty quick, but don't know if there is a daily limit to how often you can do it. But pretty darn easy if someone wants it.
#29
Old 01-24-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
I don't claim to know how all of Google works, but I would think trying to recover a password 5 minutes after logging in may not be to their liking. After all, you just logged in, so why ask for a new password? That could be a reason why it failed.
Well, now you're just using conjecture to hand-wave away datapoints that contradict your theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
So if you lock yourself out of your own account, Google gives you an option to reset the password by knowing the month/year you created your account, just as long as it can determine you are doing it from your own computer. Let's say it's fully legit, and you are at work. You can unlock your own account from any terminal at your work, since all computers share the same IP number to the internet (you are all sharing the internet modem).
This is equally just conjecture, but since it's your theory you naturally accept it uncritically. But the fact is, none of us know what factors into the decision to allow the recovery. This "same IP" theory is far from proven.

I tried it again, this time trying to recover my primary gmail account, one that I've used constantly from this same IP address for years (static business IP). Same result, google did not allow me to recover.

So for my part I'm convinced it's not as easy as you claim, and I have doubts about your IP address explanation. I actually suspect the secondary email address one uses to send the verification email has something to do with it. I made sure that I used an address that was never registered with google as my recovery address. Not sure what you used in your attempts.

Moreover, you yourself have stated that the issue was discussed on google forums, from some years ago, so it's not like this is completely unknown or even new to the public. So if it were such a gaping security hole I would expect it to be much more well-known as an exploit by now.
#30
Old 01-24-2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arseNal View Post
So for my part I'm convinced it's not as easy as you claim, and I have doubts about your IP address explanation. I actually suspect the secondary email address one uses to send the verification email has something to do with it. I made sure that I used an address that was never registered with google as my recovery address. Not sure what you used in your attempts.
I just tried it with 2 more totally different accounts that have nothing to do with me or my emails and it works from any computer at my work. I guess everyone on Google support forums are wrong too, right?

It's not a "security hole" it is as Google designed for password recovery. If you can't recover your own password this way, then obviously it's not working for YOU, like it should be. No? It's supposed to work like this! I don't have a crystal ball to know why it doesn't in your case.

The only problem is the insanely easy question you have to verify. If it doesn't work for you, then don't worry about it and go about your day. This is a major issue for some of us.
#31
Old 01-24-2017, 02:02 PM
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Hmmm, with so many accounts that have "nothing to do with you" that you can crack - where are you getting these? You said work. Are these work accounts or just plain [email protected] that your colleagues have as private email accounts?

I don't doubt that you are cracking these accounts, but there is more to this.
#32
Old 01-24-2017, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
Hmmm, with so many accounts that have "nothing to do with you" that you can crack - where are you getting these? You said work. Are these work accounts or just plain [email protected] that your colleagues have as private email accounts?

I don't doubt that you are cracking these accounts, but there is more to this.
I'm not "cracking" anything. I am using Googles built in password recovery used as they themselves designed and instructed users to utilize. Only glitch is that it recognizes all of us on our network as the authorized user, just as others have discovered and complained to Google about.

I have friends and coworkers who trust me since I fix their computers and can have full access already, so I can try it with a lot of accounts just to confirm it works this way. None of them are work accounts, they are personal free accounts, and none of my friends can believe it works either.

Neither did I when I stumbled on this, that's why I tried to share it and make others aware and to protect themselves after Google told me there is no issue with this setup.
#33
Old 01-24-2017, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
Go to your inbox, and click "oldest" up top by the message count. It will show the first day of your account and Google greeting you will be your first email.
I got Gmail when it came out in 2005. I just checked and my oldest email is from 2009. I guess I was a lot better about deleting unwanted emails back then. Wasn't used to the essentially infinite amount of space Gmail gives you for free.
#34
Old 01-24-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
I'm not "cracking" anything. I am using Googles built in password recovery used as they themselves designed and instructed users to utilize.
Still counts as a crack.

OK, like I said, there seems to be something we are missing if it isn't working for some people that try it. Very likely some part of your procedure they are not exactly duplicating. Question is what.
#35
Old 01-24-2017, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnimator View Post
Or they can just see when you sent them the first email, and then keep guessing backwards month by month. 12 guesses = 1 year. It goes pretty quick, but don't know if there is a daily limit to how often you can do it. But pretty darn easy if someone wants it.
So what you're saying is that having failed the two-step verification Google still let you in? Sorry, I will need more proof than that.
#36
Old 01-25-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Girl View Post
So what you're saying is that having failed the two-step verification Google still let you in? Sorry, I will need more proof than that.
Why don't you just check it for yourself and see. Or is that too much to ask and you just want to be spoonfed?
#37
Old 01-25-2017, 08:33 PM
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I can't figure out my setup date to try it without brute forcing it. Do people really never clean out their inboxes?

Anyway, it's no less secure that those "secret question" things. If you can social engineer or brute force someone's gmail signup date, you can surely do the same for their pet's name or old high school name. You don't have to be on the same network for the latter to work and google at least notifies you when new devices log in unlike most sites.

It's interesting, and it wouldn't hurt to do away with it, but, I give it a "meh." If security was really a concern you wouldn't be using gmail to begin with.
#38
Old 01-25-2017, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubaya View Post
I can't figure out my setup date to try it without brute forcing it. Do people really never clean out their inboxes?
The gmail paradigm is to archive it, not delete it. It isn't in you in box but it is saved.

I found my welcome message for all of my numerous gmail accounts. Going back a lot more years than I care to think about now. There are pics of me with a lot more hair than I currently sport. It is a fun stroll through memory lane back to when you had to get an invite for a gmail account.
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