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#51
Old 12-31-2017, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fervour View Post
... to imagine your toddler an 18 year old. Would you really want to restrict that child's access to the inside?
If my 18-year-old had a habit of killing quantities of native birds, I would most certainly want to keep him/her inside.

Please note that it's not a case of preferring birds to cats - given a modest level of cat-owner responsibility, both can prosper.
#52
Old 01-01-2018, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Xema View Post
If my 18-year-old had a habit of killing quantities of native birds, I would most certainly want to keep him/her inside.

Please note that it's not a case of preferring birds to cats - given a modest level of cat-owner responsibility, both can prosper.
fair enough.
#53
Old 01-02-2018, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Why do you feel that you're above the law?
Civil disobediance. You have a moral and ethical right to disobey a immoral or unethical law.

I think that all ferals need to be TNR (trapped, neutered and returned". It has been show that TNR felines keep other feral cats at bay and will reduce the feral population in time.

https://alleycat.org/resources/w...-case-for-tnr/

Colonies that are involved in TNR diminish in size over time.

During an 11-year study of TNR at the University of Florida, the number of cats on campus declined by 66%, with no new kittens being born after the first four years of operation.1
A study of the impact of TNR on feral cat colonies in Rome, Italy, also observed colony size decrease between 16% and 32% over a 10-year period.
Trap-Neuter-Return quickly stabilizes feral cat populations by instantly ending reproduction and by removing socialized cats from the colony.

A TNR program at the University of Texas A&M neutered 123 cats in its first year, and found no new litters of kittens the following year.
Over the course of the same study, 20% of the cats trapped were found to be socialized stray cats and adopted.2
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#54
Old 01-02-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fervour View Post
Because they want to. The cats want to go outside. It matters not to me that they didn't start detained. The fact that they want to go outside means something. I assume you want to go outside. Would you deny that right to your child? Imprisoning something wild because you feel it would be better for a different species seems-----I don't know. Have you never loved an imperfect animal?

I don't see how you have answered why wild birds are more valuable then feral cats.
Cats are perfectly happy in a house, assuming reasonable space. They dont need to go outside, and altho it may seem they are a little happier, since their lifespan is generally reduced by half- they have a much less happy life.
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#55
Old 01-02-2018, 08:10 PM
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Ravenous furry faced predators

Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science.

Unfortunately, the scientific case for TNR isn't as strong as the advocacy website helpfully linked to by Dr. Deth indicates. TNR advocates state at times that the practice will eliminate feral colonies, and I understand there's not good evidence for this. Not surprising, as many TNR feral colonies receive food subsidies by sentimental humans. More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species.

Bird advocacy organization criticizing TNR: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-in...euter-release/

Scientific article: "Critical Assessment of Claims Regarding Management of Feral Cats by Trap–Neuter–Return" (2009)
Abstract: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19245489

Selected quote from introduction:
Unfortunately, TNR does not eliminate feral cat colonies under prevailing conditions (Jessup 2004; Winter 2004, 2006) and many false claims used to support the approach go unchallenged. Published research has been distorted by TNR proponents with little response from the scientific community, perhaps in part because TNR has been approached largely as an animal welfare issue instead of being recognized as a broad environmental issue with a range of impacts on species conservation, the physical environment, and human health. Conservation scientists and advocates must properly identify the environmental implications of feral cat management and actively engage this issue to bring scientific information to the attention of policy makers.
#56
Old 01-02-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science.

Unfortunately, the scientific case for TNR isn't as strong as the advocacy website helpfully linked to by Dr. Deth indicates. TNR advocates state at times that the practice will eliminate feral colonies, and I understand there's not good evidence for this. Not surprising, as many TNR feral colonies receive food subsidies by sentimental humans. More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species.
]
Obviously more data would be good, but I have never heard a TNR advocate say that TNR "eliminates" feral colonies, it only controls them.

You could of course start killing them, but most people wouldnt liek that and since many "feral" cats are just lost housepets, some of which in TNR work- are returned to their happy owner, it would be pretty immoral to do so.
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#57
Old 01-02-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
Put me on the side of birds and lizards - feral feline colonies need to be eliminated with severe prejudice, consistent with the best science.More research is necessary, but I say we need to stop feeding invasive species.
entific information to the attention of policy makers. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

And if we are going to eliminate invasive species, then we have to eliminate dogs, horses, goats, sheep, cattle, chickens, pigs and humans. Turkeys are Ok tho!
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#58
Old 01-02-2018, 10:09 PM
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Dogs, horses, etc don't kill 3 billion wild birds per year. Cite (says 1.4 - 3.7 billion): https://usatoday.com/story/news/...study/1873871/

PDF of scientific article I forgot to link to: https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uplo...TNR-claims.pdf

It addresses and debunks many of the claims of TNR advocates. One 10 year TNR program in Rome concluded that their efforts were a waste of money, time and energy. Examples of successes often fail to evaluate wildlife impacts.

I see no problem with traditional animal control methods, along with efforts to avoid feeding non-native species and (often simultaneously) pests. Animals with collars can be returned to their homes. Those without will be at risk.

I concede there are political issues and varying opinions. I also find it plausible that the right sort of TNR program might be made to work, but I strongly suspect that in practice a mixture of methods would be best. For example, the paper notes the following:
Mathematical models of feral cat populations indicate that 71–94% of a population must be neutered for the population to decline, assuming there is no immigration (Andersen et al. 2004; Foley et al. 2005). This level of neutering and exclusion of additional cats has not been consistently documented in practice.
...but it might be feasible in selected areas, eg. Duckster's backyard.
#59
Old 01-05-2018, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fervour View Post
ETA, I would like for you to imagine your toddler an 18 year old. Would you really want to restrict that child's access to the inside? For me, give me liberty or give me death.
I regard an adult cat as something closer to a toddler than an adult human in terms of care. But an 18 year old could be self-destructive or other-destructive in a such a way that I wouldn't want them to go outside unsupervised.

If I were in your shoes, I might think twice about allowing the cat out during bird migration times of the year, and I would do something to make myself confident there weren't any endangered wildlife the cat could be helping to their demise.

If the cat is killing nightjars and different types of sparrows I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I wouldn't let the cat out at all if it was going onto my neighbors' property.
#60
Old 01-07-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonicamoon View Post
I have wrestled with this for a long time. Feed feral animals or no?

Sure, I feel the animal's hunger. And I hate it.

On the other hand, a well fed animal will have more frequent, and larger litters. Which equals a larger feral population.

I applaud the Duck's efforts. And his rewards. But they are all sterile ferals.

People who feed feral animals would do well to support sterilization efforts in their area.
Yes sterilization is the right answer, it's very effective actually.
#61
Old 01-08-2018, 08:50 AM
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Don't pass laws you won't be able to enforce. Cat people will never observe this law. You know it, and I know it.
#62
Old 01-08-2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FreedomRider View Post
Yes sterilization is the right answer, it's very effective actually.
71%-94% of the population must be sterilized for it to be effective, assuming humans don't add to the number of feral cats. Many of such programs have been unsuccessful according to my cite above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Mike View Post
Don't pass laws you won't be able to enforce. Cat people will never observe this law. You know it, and I know it.
Partially effective programs can still be worth supporting. Also, the best way the gauge their level of effectiveness is to give the law a try. Afterwards, more traditional measures can be attempted.
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