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#1
Old 10-27-2001, 05:33 AM
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Since it's never mentioned in the movie, does the book say?

Was she killed by the tornado while bicycling back to her home? Or will the Gales be paid another visit by her looking to take the doggie away again?



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MODERATOR COMMENT: Please note that this thread is from 2001, until revived in Nov 2013 in Post #14. If you're replying to one of the earlier posts, just be aware that they're from 12 years ago. -- CKDH

Last edited by C K Dexter Haven; 11-23-2013 at 05:40 PM.
#2
Old 10-27-2001, 06:06 AM
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There is a web page for everyting!

http://geocities.com/Hollywood/H...96/msgulch.htm

Her fate in the movie is a matter of opinion; I have to say that the analysis by that web site makes sense:
She did die because all characters in the real world had their counterparts in the dream one. So: ding-dong the Gulch is dead!

BTW, Miss Gulch never appeared in the original book:
http://geocities.com/Heartland/M.../oz-books.html

She either was a Hollywood creation or she was created for the theater play first.
#3
Old 10-27-2001, 06:48 AM
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According to the play, a telegraph pole landed on her and broke her leg. Since her leg was in a cast, she was unable to bother Dorothy for a few weeks... but, ultimately (my prediction), Miss Gulch gets her way, takes the Gail's farm, and Dorothy grows up to be a traumatized teenager living in the big city, and, ultimately, commits suicide in a bout of hopeless depression.

I didn't like working on that play. No, not one bit.
#4
Old 10-27-2001, 07:23 AM
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Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad. Knowing Miss Gulch died in the twister would make it worth the trip, though.

Chris W
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#5
Old 10-27-2001, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad.
Because, ultimately, Dorothy was an absolute and total imbecile.
#6
Old 10-29-2001, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SPOOFE
Quote:
Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad.
Because, ultimately, Dorothy was an absolute and total imbecile.
She missed her Auntie Em, people...
#7
Old 10-29-2001, 07:53 AM
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This came up during the weekend. MilliCal asked for The Wizard of Oz to be put on for the zillionth time, and it hit me.

CalMeacham: Hey! Why is everyone happy at the end? Toto's still under a Sentence of Death!

Pepper Mill: No, he isn't. Miss Gulch gets killed.

CM: They never say that, though.

PM: She did. Remember when she's in the tornado?

CM: That's just a dream.

PM: It doesn't matter. She's dead. It's the only way to have a happy ending.



I guess it's true, at least as far as the movie logic goes. There's no way you could leave that end dangling ("Welcome home, Dorothy! Here comes the sheriff for your dog!"), and you don't want to make your audience do a moral doubletake at the Happy Ending ("Oh, and by the way, Miss Gulch is dead!" "Yay!!!").


Technically, though, I still don't think this would save Toto -- the paper work had already gone through.
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#8
Old 10-29-2001, 09:25 AM
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Damn! Don't you people know anything? She went on to sell Maxwell House coffee - didn't you see the commercials.

Some people - you have to hit them over the head with everything.
#9
Old 10-29-2001, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SmeelMeel

She missed her Auntie Em, people...
Speaking of which, Clara Blandick did commit suicide in 1962.

Not to hijack, but here’s an oddity I’ve never had explained to me:

After the Wicked Witch of the West disappears in a cloud of red smoke in Munchkinland, Glinda sez: “It's all right. You can get up. She's gone. It's all right. You can all get up. Pooh – what a smell of sulphur!

What’s with the “sulphur” line?!?! I’ve probably posted this a dozen times over the past years, and have never received a good answer…
#10
Old 10-29-2001, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
After the Wicked Witch of the West disappears in a cloud of red smoke in Munchkinland, Glinda sez: “It's all right. You can get up. She's gone. It's all right. You can all get up. Pooh – what a smell of sulphur!”

What’s with the “sulphur” line?!?! I’ve probably posted this a dozen times over the past years, and have never received a good answer…
Really? I never noticed this! After all these years we're still finding little odd bits in this movie. I'll have to check our copy of it and see.


If she does say it, it's because sulphur (actually Hydrogen Sulfide) has a very bad odor, usually described as "rotten eggs", but also similar to intestinal gas. It's the odor of biblical "brimstone", and is associated with the Devil. Demons and devils are often said to disappear in a cloud of brimstone, but whether that's a genuine legend or only the recent addition of fantasy writers I do not know. In any event, it's wholly in keeping with the Wicked Witch of the West.

Of course, the audience of TWOO couldn't smell this, so Glinda or someone has to give the impression, probably by holding their nose (I'll have to check the film for that, too), or by making comment. The comment is as subtle as a sledgehammer, though, and probably going overboard.
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#11
Old 10-29-2001, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CalMeacham



If she does say (the sulpher line), it's because sulphur (actually Hydrogen Sulfide) has a very bad odor, usually described as "rotten eggs", but also similar to intestinal gas. It's the odor of biblical "brimstone", and is associated with the Devil. Demons and devils are often said to disappear in a cloud of brimstone, but whether that's a genuine legend or only the recent addition of fantasy writers I do not know. In any event, it's wholly in keeping with the Wicked Witch of the West.
Hmmm. Well, I suspect that’s as good a theory as any.

When compared with the rest of the script (and I practically know it by heart, though not voluntarily), this particular line seems most odd. Perhaps it was an inside joke.
#12
Old 10-30-2001, 01:16 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crafter_Man
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by SmeelMeel
After the Wicked Witch of the West disappears in a cloud of red smoke in Munchkinland, Glinda sez: “It's all right. You can get up. She's gone. It's all right. You can all get up. Pooh – what a smell of sulphur!

What’s with the “sulphur” line?!?!
Never mind that -- what's Pooh doing in Oz?
#13
Old 10-30-2001, 02:20 AM
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Sulphur and brimstone, traditionally associated with Hell or Satan. As in "there's a whiff of brimstone about that plan.." etc

Of course, she might have farted as she died...

Oh - did I say that out loud?


Redboss
#14
Old 10-30-2001, 04:52 AM
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She missed her Auntie Em, people...
Even absolute and total imbeciles miss their Aunt Em.
#15
Old 11-22-2013, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
This came up during the weekend. MilliCal asked for The Wizard of Oz to be put on for the zillionth time, and it hit me.[...]

There's no way you could leave that end dangling ("Welcome home, Dorothy! Here comes the sheriff for your dog!"), and you don't want to make your audience do a moral doubletake at the Happy Ending ("Oh, and by the way, Miss Gulch is dead!" "Yay!!!").
Hah!

It took me until the zillionth time watching before this struck me as well. Just now, my two youngest were watching the movie and it occurred to me. I guess there is no satisfactory definitive answer or someone on the SDMB would have figured it out.
#16
Old 11-22-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SPOOFE View Post
Because, ultimately, Dorothy was an absolute and total imbecile.
Far worse than that if you read the books, which are batshit insane.
#17
Old 11-22-2013, 04:47 PM
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To be fair, though, Book-Dorothy is like 7.
#18
Old 11-22-2013, 06:04 PM
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These days Miss Gultch has a taste for BRAIIIIIIIIINS

or she would if she hadn't been melted by Dorothy. She was the WWotW. You even see her change forms during the twister. All a dream, feh, yeah right.
#19
Old 11-22-2013, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riserius1 View Post
Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad.
You and the Scarecrow both:

Quote:
Originally Posted by L. Frank Baum
The Scarecrow listened carefully, and said, "I cannot understand why you should wish to leave this beautiful country and go back to the dry, gray place you call Kansas."

"That is because you have no brains" answered the girl. "No matter how dreary and gray our homes are, we people of flesh and blood would rather live there than in any other country, be it ever so beautiful. There is no place like home."

The Scarecrow sighed.

"Of course I cannot understand it," he said. "If your heads were stuffed with straw, like mine, you would probably all live in the beautiful places, and then Kansas would have no people at all. It is fortunate for Kansas that you have brains."
#20
Old 11-22-2013, 08:38 PM
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Miss Almira Gulch was riding a bicycle through the Kansas countryside when a tornado came ripping up the path she was riding down.
#21
Old 11-22-2013, 10:22 PM
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That's a pretty funny excerpt. But Dorothy could have said "at least in Kansas, we aren't terrorized by witches and flying monkeys"!
#22
Old 11-22-2013, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Pepperwinkle View Post
Miss Almira Gulch was riding a bicycle through the Kansas countryside when a tornado came ripping up the path she was riding down.
That is my thought. If she were blown up by the tornado, she was toast.
A digression; I watched the film for the first time at a neighbor's house, and when I saw Almira riding her bicycle in the tornado, I ran screaming in fear, home to my Mother.
#23
Old 11-22-2013, 11:08 PM
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Picking this thread up, whirling it around, and setting it down in Cafe Society, on top of the Wicked Witch of the East.
#24
Old 11-22-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riserius1 View Post
Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Charles View Post
You and the Scarecrow both:
In one of the later books, Dorothy does move to Oz permanently, with Aunt Em and Uncle Henry.
#25
Old 11-23-2013, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
In one of the later books, Dorothy does move to Oz permanently, with Aunt Em and Uncle Henry.
And Billina the chicken.
#26
Old 11-23-2013, 01:39 AM
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I think the smell of sulfur would be specifically associated with the underworld/Hell. It's in the song the Munchikins sing.

She's gone where the goblins go
Below, below below!
#27
Old 11-23-2013, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
If she does say it, it's because sulphur (actually Hydrogen Sulfide) has a very bad odor, usually described as "rotten eggs", but also similar to intestinal gas. It's the odor of biblical "brimstone", and is associated with the Devil. Demons and devils are often said to disappear in a cloud of brimstone, but whether that's a genuine legend or only the recent addition of fantasy writers I do not know. In any event, it's wholly in keeping with the Wicked Witch of the West.
No, the brimstone smell associated with the devil is not hydrogen sulfide, stinky though that is, but sulfur dioxide, which has a quite different, but also very unpleasant (and choking) smell. It is produced when sulfur burns in air, and so was the smell of the ancient chemical weapon, Greek Fire. It is also commonly vented by active volcanoes, and thus was thought to come from the mouths of hell, and from hell's lakes of fire.
#28
Old 11-23-2013, 03:05 AM
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re the smell of sulphur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Ch...United_Nations
#29
Old 11-23-2013, 12:13 PM
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What happened to Miss Gulch? She and her bicycle got caught up in the twister, and incredible as it may seem, they were set down in front of her house TOTALLY UNHARMED.

Not only that, when she got up off her knees after thanking the Lord for her deliverance, she resolved that Toto would at least have a last meal before she took him to be destroyed. She looked in her basket on the back fender, and what did she see?



Of course, having this new responsibility for another life caused her to soften her heart, and call off Toto's execution.

Either that, or she assumed that Toto was already dead from the fall out of the basket, and figured: Welp, better not waste this death warrant! Let's you and me go off and see the Sheriff!
#30
Old 11-23-2013, 03:17 PM
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Of course you know it wasn't about Toto. It was all about coercion and sapphic lust
#31
Old 11-23-2013, 04:12 PM
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She was melted when the tornado dumped a large tank of sulphuric acid on her.
#32
Old 11-23-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
BTW, Miss Gulch never appeared in the original book:
http://geocities.com/Heartland/M.../oz-books.html

She either was a Hollywood creation or she was created for the theater play first.
I'm pretty sure that the entire idea of the real world story came from the movie, as I remember reading that taking so long to get to Oz was considered a big deal back then.

The Wiki article
on the play seems to confirm this, saying that the story starts with the storm.
#33
Old 03-25-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
Technically, though, I still don't think this would save Toto -- the paper work had already gone through.
Paperwork? Lost in the storm!
#34
Old 03-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by riserius1 View Post
Ya know, I never could figure out why Dorothy wanted to go back there so bad. Knowing Miss Gulch died in the twister would make it worth the trip, though.

Chris W
For the book version, I'd REALLY agree with you. The Gales' farm in the book is described as being totally isolated, with nothing but miles of gray prairie all around, the house made gray itself from the wind and sun, and Uncle Henry and Aunt Em turned gray and careworn. In short, "gray" (a word that's repeated several times within the first few paragraphs).

Aunt Em is described as having been a pretty young woman when she first married Uncle Henry, but the environment and the constant hardship have turned her somber and unsmiling. In fact, when little Dorothy first came to live with them, she is unsettled by the sound of the child's laughter since she can't understand what there is in all this to laugh at.

Toto's a godsend for Dorothy (and, as is mentioned above, there's no Miss Gulch in the novel), since he provides her with something to laugh at and be playful with.

By contrast, the movie's Kansas is a more pleasant place, even if it IS sepia-toned. There's apparently a community outside the farm, it's implied that Dorothy goes to school so she has other kids around, and there are the farmhands who act as sort of unofficial uncles and have a lot of affection for her. Henry is a hard worker, but not above humor ("Oh, you mean she bit her dog, eh?") and Em may be no-nonsense but clearly loves Dorothy and is the kind who'll give her farmhands just-fried doughnuts even after she's just scolded them. So movie!Kansas may be humdrum compared to Oz, but it's not unpleasant. Not like the dreary, isolated, gray, cold place Baum described.

As for what will become of Toto...apparently in earlier drafts, the Wizard counterpart was some sort of doctor or influential figure who assured Dorothy, when she woke up, that he'd speak up for Toto and the sheriff wouldn't take him.

Otherwise, I like to think that either Miss Gulch got killed in the tornado, or that she brought the sheriff over, he took one look at this tiny hairball wagging his tail and said, "THAT'S your 'menace to the community'? Lady, I'm trying to help this county rebuild after that twister. There are people around here who've lost their homes. I've got bigger problems than a dog I've had Easter hams bigger than. You don't want that dog to bite you, quit hitting him with your umbrella!" and tears up the warrant.

Last edited by Hermione; 03-25-2014 at 01:08 PM.
#35
Old 03-25-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermione View Post
[S]he brought the sheriff over, he took one look at this tiny hairball wagging his tail and said, "THAT'S your 'menace to the community'? Lady, I'm trying to help this county rebuild after that twister. There are people around here who've lost their homes. I've got bigger problems than a dog I've had Easter hams bigger than. You don't want that dog to bite you, quit hitting him with your umbrella!" and tears up the warrant.
You know, that makes so much sense, I'm ashamed it didn't occur to me! Especially after the twister, no one is going to have patience with a crabby old lady looking to punish a little girl who was injured and barely survived. In fact, if she has even a tiny shred of either humanity or common sense and a desire not to be driven out the community, Miss Gulch will drop the issue herself and find something else to gripe about. ("That new barn the Potters are putting up to replace the one the twister blew down blocks my view of the plain. I don't care if there's nothing to look at there, it still blocks it! And why does it have to be red? Why can't it be brown or gray like everything else around here? A twister is no excuse to assault my eyes with heathen colors like that. If'n the good Lord had intended this place to pretty, He'd a' made it pretty Hisself!")
#36
Old 03-25-2014, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
In one of the later books, Dorothy does move to Oz permanently, with Aunt Em and Uncle Henry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Amazing View Post
And Billina the chicken.
Different books, though. Billina ends up in Oz with Dorothy in "Ozma of Oz", and Dorothy gets Ozma to bring Henry and Em to Oz after their farm is foreclosed on in "The Emerald City of Oz".

I just finished rereading all of the Baum Oz books on Kindle a couple of weeks ago.
#37
Old 03-25-2014, 08:22 PM
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Scratching my head why this zombie was revived when there is a newer one started yesterday that is basically identical.
#38
Old 03-25-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
Scratching my head why this zombie was revived when there is a newer one started yesterday that is basically identical.
I just like that there's a moderator edit in the OP warning that it's a zombie. From the previous revival.
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